Harmonious Emptiness

See chapter 22 of The Chuang Tzu for more elucidation of chapter one: At this point, Grand Purity asked No-End, "Do you understand the Way?" "I don't understand it," said No-End. Then he asked No-Action, and No-Action said, "I understand the Way." "You say you understand the Way - is there some trick to it?" "There is." "What's the trick?" No-Action said, "I understand that the Way can exalt things and can humble them; that it can bind them together and can cause them to disperse. This is the trick by which I understand the Way." Grand Purity, having received these various answers, went and questioned No-Beginning, saying, "If this is how it is, then between No-End's declaration that he doesn't understand, and No-Action's declaration that he does, which is right and which is wrong?" No-Beginning said, "Not to understand is profound; to understand is shallow. Not to understand is to be on the inside; to understand is to be on the outside." Thereupon Grand Purity gazed up and sighed, saying, "Not to understand is to understand? To understand is not to understand? Who understands the understanding that does not understand?" No-Beginning said, "The Way cannot be heard; heard, it is not the Way. The Way cannot be seen; seen, it is not the Way. The Way cannot be described; described, it is not the Way. That which gives form to the formed is itself formless - can you understand that? There is no name that fits the Way."

What's funny about this chapter, is that we do this all the time on ttb - someone starts to fight, to be competitive, and then everyone wants to be right, to be first. It's contagious. This chapter speaks to exactly that. I'm only calling out myself on that, btw.

Some more thoughts on chapter five. Chuang Tzu showed that the straw dogs were presented to Heaven as offerings. Also that a priest and another person praying to Heaven would infuse the straw dogs with their intentions and energy. from Chuang Tzu, section 14: Music Master Chin said, "Before the straw dogs are presented at the sacrifice, they are stored in bamboo boxes and covered over with patterned embroidery, while the impersonator of the dead and the priest fast and practice austerities in preparation for fetching them. It's not just a nice straw sculpture that's being offered, it's a purified vessel, infused with prayers and energy that is being offered. So, if the sages treat people as straw dogs, it's because they purify them, and try to infuse them with virtuous energy. See chapter 51 of the Dao De Jing: 51 1. The Way gives birth to them and Virtue nourishes them; 2. Substance gives them form and their unique capacities complete them. 3. Therefore the ten thousand things venerate the Way and honor Virtue. 4. As for their veneration of the Way and their honoring of Virtue— 5. No one rewards them for it; it's constantly so on its own. 6. The Way gives birth to them, nourishes them, matures them, completes them, rests them, rears them, supports them, and protects them. 7. It gives birth to them but doesn't try to own them; 8. It acts on their behalf but doesn't make them dependent; 9. It matures them but doesn't rule them. 10. This we call Profound Virtue. The sage follows the ways of Dao and De.

-- side note -- True, I agree there are many instances of this, though I would say, from a Taoist perspective, the style of Confucianism is too "clever" in finding answers for every little thing, which makes for difficulties in putting those subtleties into practice while "following" Confucianism, a main part of which is adherence to the words of another (ie., arbitrary principles).

I think there is a time for both open and closed and knowing when and how is part of the work. I know that in Zen, there is an importance put on not moving anything whatsoever, but the two are not the same. I would say start with the eyes open, head slightly tilted down like being pulled up by a string from the crown. At this position, the eyes naturally look down the nose. That's what your "looking for" imo, according to the parts of the text which talk about this (mentioned earlier in the thread). As in "turning the light around," sometimes closing the eyes is necessary to keep the light internalized, but you need to recognize when you start "dreaming" and thoughts are taking you on a journey. Then it's necessary to slowly open the eyes to the same position so that you're back "where you are." Also having the eyes open at times helps to ensure that you can be in the material world while still in the deep state. Or maybe that's just where I'm at with it. It may be different for others... Then there's the thing about thoughts. The Nei Ye says that thoughts come from chi and that once they have manifested from chi to thought to knowledge, it's time to stop thinking about it. So, it's not bad to allow some thoughts when they are simply expressions of the chi-knowledge that is being processed in the process. It also says in chapter four 然则欲无念乎，不能无念也 "So should one have no thoughts? To be without thoughts is impossible."

I would reiterate bringing it up to the boss that you want to move forward in the company. Then he/she will be watching you anyways, and respect your modesty. For moving quickly and mindfully at the same time - it helps to be already in motion so that you can use that momentum rather than having to refocus on moving quickly.

I'd say that another parallel would be, for example, in pushing through blockages when energy is sitting in them, in order for energy to get to "the summit." The ruler is the person sitting there, wen is sitting calmly with the lao gong points over the dantien, allowing energy to grow, rise, etc., with patience and equanimity. Wu is applied when energy gets to a point and needs to move forward. There is also the "warriors breath," which is louder and more forceful, and the "scholars breath," which is near imperceptible.

Maybe 徼surface and the 眇subtle and mysterious depths. The character for Miao appears to refer to the subtle and mysterious qualities femininity.

db - it wasn't directed to your question, but thanks for your reply in any case. Gmp, I meant "and your spiritual relationship with that society." By that I mean, that how you interact with society plays a large part in one's spirituality whether they acknowledge it or not. The other two questions are quite obviously answered in the video, which is essentially the OP of this thread, so you'll have to give it a watch if you want to know my answers, since my personal thoughts on that are in agreement with the video.

Right, never heard of act not acting.. brand new...

Please watch the video before asking questions about the topic. The questions posed are mostly all answered in the video. Thanks.

Yes, very interesting angle mr. TT (Sorry, just can't call anybody Taiost Canon, nor "the Bible"). While I think the usual way of trying to translate it is the first intended meaning, this may be an example of "as above so below" in regard to De. All things align with the course, the tendencies, the pattern, the regularities, the directions, of true Virtue, shan De if you will. To me, this is what Dao is. The way that conforms to Mysterious Virtue.

Okay, so then just to be clear, this means that we can talk about racism, homophobia, misogyny, etc., so long as we do not attack a member with vicious intent by calling them racist, misogynist, etc. when they do not expressly declare to be so themselves, correct? But we can say "(I believe) such and such idea, ideas, or policy is racially biased/racist, has racist overtones/undertones" correct? (the same applying to other types of legally recognized "hatred," of course...)

This doesn't make sense to me. Are you saying that if someone is being hateful or racist, those who are offended cannot even acknowledge that they are offended? The clearest term of what your talking about is anti-anti-hate speech - speech which is against hate speech. Are you suggesting that ttb censor objections to hate speech? Censor objections to legally recognized forms of "hate?"

Do you not think that being aware of the prevalence of ignorance and systemic unfairness in society is an important issue in one's spiritual relationship with it? Especially when obliviousness to that ignorance and systemic unfairness is so much the norm that it may in fact be a social pathology? Again, this video was made, and posted, in order to inform. There are no attacks in it. I hope you will all give it some of your time and consideration so that, at the very least, you understand why it has been posted here, and why it is important that people watch this, in order to understand more about the immediate world in which we all live.

Keep in mind that the image for govern, 治, refers to water banks governing the flow of water, and is often used to say "this follows (the norms of) that." My understanding of the meaning here is that it suggests that "the highest good conforms to the way of water," which was put more simply as "the highest good is like water."

A much belated thanks for this link . Very interesting!

I fully agree. While, at the same time (not saying that you do), for the most part, I don't "have anything personal" against the people who are defending these things, because, I think being in the dark on these things is somewhat beyond their conscious awareness due the issues being beyond their environment. There is definitely a denial that goes on with some well-meaning people in privileged groups about their privilege. Without diverting the conversation, I'd suggest watching some Tim Wise lectures - perhaps the only well known white man who lectures on this type of thing. There is also, as Spotless said, something to the mod approach that wants to let those who need to become, shall we say, "more self-aware" do so by collecting their thoughts in conversations here, though at the same time recognition that an internet forum could never substitute for proper therapy. I think we do need to be careful of allowing people to vent too much pollution though as it can also pollute others who might be susceptible to the fumes.

Ahh, just lost my post.. so, briefly, Yes, and see ch. 15 about the seeming randomness of water Maybe stillness would be better, but that might have been confusing with "serene" also meaning "stillness." Earth is a common "archetype" for stillness in Taoist parlance. Also, note that "abiding, dwelling" here is sometimes used to refer to a state of mind, like "dwelling in desire." Maybe similar to hippy-slang's "hung up on" something. iyam, some alternative word meanings may help point to the connection of ideas without having literal weight. It was also common in Confucian writing, which was often written as guidance to follow while interacting with (sometimes tyrannical) authority.

I think part of the problem here is that not enough of the people who have a problem with hate speech raise their voice when it comes around. Most people just don't want to go there. But as a place for eclectic spiritual discussion here, I really don't see why it's so strange to people that anything commonly perceived as hate speech would be disallowed. Sure, there might be reason to talk about certain things here like, for example, traditional views on homosexuality in cultivation, but it's easily a discussion that we can do without on the forum, and I'm sure the reasonable people who have controversial views on it won't have any problem skipping that conversation outside of perhaps private messages. We want this place to be inviting for the types of people that seek out this type of forum, and the overwhelming majority of people like that that I've met in person would not be comfortable with anything resembling hate speech. I know this is not a temple, yoga studio, or dojo, but any of these places would never welcome hate speech in this day and age, at least not in the study area - so there's not much reason to expect it to be allowed here either, imo.

On further reflection, what I hear from this chapter is how to contend "without contention." In face of contention: start with earth-like stillness, a profound heart, and the giving nature of Heaven. Then, ensure that your words are true, sincere, and from the heart. Do not waver in uprightness, and if actions must be taken, do them with great ability and timing.

Thanks for clarifying your position here at least then.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts db. It's always wonderfully thought provoking to consider the implications of the original characters of the DDJ. I hadn't looked the MWD text for this chapter yet. 青 ching, according to a book I have by Rose Quong, is also used as part of the word for "please; to invite; please help yourself; after you," and is said to be part of it because the sound of the word is very pleasant, I suppose just as the colour (青 = green / blue / black) is, which evokes the colour of a lake under the moonlight to me, perhaps because it also has "moon" as part of the word. So this inviting word with "contend" became "not contend" in the Heshangong and Wang Bi texts. Perhaps "still/serene" was being signified as something like "pleasantry in the face of contention" - an image of being calm and open in the face of contention = serenity? This may be signified in the lines 水善利萬物而有靜 The goodness of water (is found in that it) serenely benefits all things. 居眾人之所惡 Staying in the places that others detest After all, being serene in the face of contention (not contending) would certainly be a place that other's don't want to stay, and may perhaps be required to go to those places as well . Also, remember that the chapter closes with 夫唯不爭故無尤 So, when not in contention, there is no fault or blame. Here is my translation of Chapter Eight, MWD text: 上善若水 The highest good is like water 水善利萬物而有靜 The goodness of water (is found in that it) serenely benefits all things. 居眾人之所惡 Staying in the places that others detest 故幾於道矣. Thereby it is very close to Dao 居善地 The goodness of immobility is found in the earth 心善渊 The heart's goodness is found in it's depth 予善天 The goodness of giving is found in Heaven (giving water, sunlight, air) 言善信 The goodness of words is found in sincerity 正善治 The goodness of uprightness is found in good and just order 事善能 The goodness of duties is found in ability 动善时 The goodness of movement and change is found in timing 夫唯不爭故無尤 So, when not in contention, there is no fault or blame. (my translations) This sometimes appears in sentences just to mean "and then" or "and thus" meaning that things are ordered this way. This may show influence from the I Ching lines which sometimes close with "there is blame/reproach" or "there is no blame.reproach." Remember that, especially in that time period, blame/reproach might be followed by severe consequences. I agree that the lines seem intentionally "open," perhaps as a sort of wu-wei poetic device if you will. There is an interesting correlation between the lines when shan is translated as kindness as well (my personal practice discussion on that).

Well, thanks for sharing that with us Songtsan, but that's idiotic to think you shouldn't defend yourself any differently from a woman than from a man. The average 14 year old boy would be about an even match for the average grown woman, and there's a reason why it's also dishonourable to go toe to toe with a fourteen year old boy unless your maybe under 16 yrs old. And yes, I can say that it's idiotic, because again, being against bashing women is acceptable on ttb. Being for bashing women is not acceptable.

let's say you're on a subway, and you see a woman being assaulted. Is the "spiritual thing to do" just to sit there and not be against it? Songtsan, I put part of the blame for that on not being able to use the nuance of natural speech, which often makes things come out as "this is how it is!" I know I have difficulty with that myself because I use more "nuance" when saying something in opposition to someone elses opinion. It takes a long time to write things in a way using the same words but communicating the nuance as well. There may be something, also, to the absence of this nuance resulting in the "nuance" becoming impolite and confrontational, in the absence of any audio or visual cues, deference, intensity, etc..