Harmonious Emptiness

Yeah, I think cultural fusion is fine and great as long as it becomes a separate culture rather than overtaking each separate one. What culture isn't a cultural fusion anyways?

Well SJ, as I've stated, this was really an inquiry from the beginning. When I still had doubts of what was said due to something I had read then I maintained my doubts until proven otherwise. I've also said, I now see that dharmakaya, as a Buddhist concept, is not the same as God by most people's concept; however, I see enough similarities that I'm still doubting that everyone is speaking about different things and different experience (these things and experiences being related) whether or not they say otherwise. So, yes, I do hold my own views of this all which do not need to be confirmed by any doctrines. The doctrines merely attempt to describe that which can only be experienced, so what do I care if they are only partially exact -- they can never be more than partially exact in the words. As I said in another recent post, words and description are left behind at the gate... If you don't accept this and still want to argue with me, I'm afraid you'd be wasting both of our time.

LF, am I ever glad that you described your experience, as I couldn't really have done a better job of describing what happened to me the first time I felt. It's great that you already have meditation practices to work with. I didn't try qi gong until years later and was like "wow!" having so much more direction of moving the sensations. I'm also stoked to hear that I can actually talk about this with people who will know exactly what I'm talking about from their own experiences. On top of that, now I know what I was doing when feeling like I could arouse the same feeling in others and that it's possible, and that it can do wonderful things for them. I remember for over a month of having this experience I was able to transfer the energy to crying babies and they would stop immediately, I imagine they are far more sensitive to the energy transmission. I haven't felt the same "buzz" level for very long afterwards but now I see there are some people who are even available to assist with that !

(edit: quote from lifeforce.) Ok, wow! That makes sense of a whole lot of stuff! I suspected that must be what everyone was talking about. It's been a strange trip not really knowing for sure if that was what people have been referring to with spiritual awakenings, but it's nice to know that other people know (have experienced) what I'm talking about (experienced) too now ! "gratitude and surrender. if it's shakti, those qualities tend to arise within like a driving impulse to dissolve into perfect divinity." Absolutely yes. Like being pulled into the stream or standing under a waterfall of crystal purity.. words only get so far, or have to be left behind at the gate, like tying up the dog outside an entrance over 10 years later I still recognize the same feeling when it happens. Often I try to not "dive into it" when it happens, just being aware of it but not wanting to it be stronger as it can cause me to drop my guard when I shouldn't. I don't get though, sometimes it is triggered by random strangers who I don't think are buzzing with Kundalini. Any theories why? Also, so what do people do when they've been "touched"? What are some practices related to it, and the purposes. Not that I want to power my electricity by it or be a psychic peeping-tom, lol, but where does one go from inside the waterfall?

Xabir, you're still missing my point. I see that these ideas don't fit in exactly with Buddhism, but there are some very close similarities which I am willing to overlook due to the fact that living humans can not know what exactly the truth of the matter is. You are obviously very sure and confident in your understanding and the teachings of Buddhism, but that doesn't mean that Buddhism was spot on with every detail of existence. To me, the similarities are so similar they might as well be the same without my full understanding since any human full understanding is fully impossible anyways. Another question for you, I guess, though: Do you think we are one with everything because everything is empty?

Hopefully this is a good thread to ask this but, I'm wondering if someone here can explain experiences like the one described here by lifeforece (...assuming he doesn't mind it posted here as well): This sounds like the same thing that happened somewhat spontaneously to me when I was about 18. I won't go into the circumstances but there was a bit of a catalyst to the experience which stayed with me fairly intensely for a few weeks and still gets triggered once in a while today. When it happened the first time, I thought "what is this? if it's not love its BETTER." and became aware of a force that existed in the universe and between people in the deepest part of us. It was a major awakening to something real beyond the physical. I started to become more intuitive at times as well and came close to the edge of sanity at times though that may have been related to other things. What is that energy? Is that Shakti? Sometimes I just feel it running through my whole back and arms and neck and head and forehead and face and chest and sides, and you get the idea.. it just overtakes my senses like it came from somewhere else. I'm sure phone healings have similar effect. Does that sound like a spontaneous Kundalini awakening, at like a low introductory level? It doesn't seem like something that everyone experiences so intensely, but it also seems common in other ways.

definitely a combination of "elements" is what creates evolutions Here's something that could make huge changes with enough people behind it: "5/11/2011--Introduced.Industrial Hemp Farming Act of 2011 - Amends the Controlled Substances Act to exclude industrial hemp from the definition of "marihuana." Defines "industrial hemp" to mean the plant Cannabis sativa L. and any part of such plant, whether growing or not, with a delta-nine tetrahydrocannabinol concentration of not more than 0.3 percent on a dry weight basis. Deems Cannabis sativa L. to meet that concentration limit if a person grows or processes it for purposes of making industrial hemp in accordance with state law.." Ron Paul Signed Original Copy of Hemp Farm Bill H.R. 1831 on Hemp Paper plus Pen on Ebay for $720 Considering what an average backyard full of hemp would be worth, harvesting it 3 times a year and requiring minimal attention or land quality in US climates.

Well, the thing is, that when it is put into practice on smaller scales, it can influence the larger operation in policies and values, and lead to protecting the smaller scales. So if more autonomous actions were taken, then the values of people would change and larger scales will have to honour those values in the way they interact as well. Anarchism to me is more of a value system than a political system, but those values of course transfer into politics eventually. I really think people are afraid to assemble in these smaller groups, like there is already someone standing there with a club saying "don't even try" which maybe there is, but who is it? and how are they even heard before they're seen? @ FL, thanks for your response. I think the above addresses your response as well.

I'll make an effort not to counter point on medicare more than one more time so as not to derail this, but I think in the US, medicare would at least been a way to ensure that some of all that tax money is not going to get vacuumed up in the usual way by the military-industrial-political complex. It would have ensured that the citizens were taken care of at least physically. Every country that socialized medicare is damn happy with it, and I tell you that as a Canadian. All this BS about "oh you won't get to choose your doctor" -- you're still going to have world class doctors no matter what, without every person who ever goes to the hospital being in debt as though they had to buy a new or used car. So basically, overtaxing a population is certainly bad for it, but it's even worse when that population is barely seeing any of that money come back to them due to entrenched systems of corruption and greed. To have at least secured that money for the physical well-being of the people would have been one government involvement that even right wingers should see is more than acceptable. It's important to accept facts of a situation, and the US right now seems to just pool its tax dollars and then lets the corporate and industrial tax binge begin before it has fed the society. So again, I think there should be a yin-yang thing there where freedoms reign on one hand, but the government is a nurturing entity to the people. Otherwise it's like open season to use the government as a tool for centralizing industry, and then the industry becomes the mama-bear, but really a wolf.

yeah, don't take it personally. In regards to earlier questions, it's difficult to look at Taoism from "Left and Right" politics, but I guess it could be. I'd say the government is (supposed to be) more Yin, nurturing. Obviously Left seems more Yin. So does that mean Right is yang? Right is also (supposed to be) pretty "leave it be" which is more yin than Left government initiative. So they're both yin-yang at the same time. not to reference a 3rd time about the yin/yang of left leaning Anarchism, and Anarcho- Mutualism. I don't think government or majority participation is entirely necessary for Anarcho-Mutualism to happen simultaneously with them, which would be better, imo, than trying to change everything else. Where did I hear this story?: "The king said 'cover the ground with furs' and the Buddha(?) said 'no, just cover your feet with sandals.'"

Seems these monitors are further away than we thought if you didn't know who you was.

!. How many voters probably didn't even know his name before this nominee election? By "started in the right direction for something to happen," I mean Obama has been like the Yin recovery of the country, sh*^& he almost got you free medicare and you TRU' DAT SHIT BACK in his face! He's not in power, but what do want outta that situation?

from http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/22159-taoism-anarchism/page__p__316349__fromsearch__1entry316349 One thing that I haven't much seen addressed in Taoism is socio-economics. An interesting economic structure I've only come across recently is Mutualism as favoured by Proudhon, the father of Anarchism. I have yet to find any Proudhon translations, but Bakunin, otherwise the beginning of the Anarchist movements, was essentially socialist (as I realized while writing this, like a yin yang of right leaning libertarianism, and left leaning socialism). "Deep in his heart every worker aspires to a full life, of material well being and intellectual development, based on justice or equality for every human being longing to live and work in an environment of freedom." -Bakunin, 1869 Part of Anarchism's raison d'etre is for freedom of the workers. So how do people work at equal pays for mutually owned companies? Close consensus among partners in small groups... Right now it's small groups of people employing other people when the company has gotten beyond the capacity for consensus. Anarchism should function without government; so, the "grass roots" needs to help people start small start-ups, and maybe take a small percentage to keep their own work circulating. I just don't think large corporations can fully exist with Anarchist principles. There isn't that much consensus. People have to open their businesses together and become equal partners on smaller ventures and hopefully the inspiration will catch on and more people will be able to do it. Equal contribution is needed for equal pay, so I guess it would be done in percentages. At huge levels of co-operation, there has to be leaders with authority. I guess they have to be pinnacles of virtue, truly "sons of heaven" who keep the Tao in order and harmony while nurturing and allowing the smaller organic entities (Feng Shui could be well employed in modern enterprise) to flourish in harmony with the rest of the garden. What we need is a national gardener to help plant and nurture the social garden; keeping weeds and destructive foliage from ruining the rest, while allowing everything to grow as unimpeded as possible. Right now it's like squirrels and racoons are the only ones tending to the garden. This marriage of right and left is the yin & yang of economics I think... hmmmm.. never thought of that... "I am truly free only when all human beings, men and women, are equally free. The freedom of other men, far from negating or limiting my freedom, is, on the contrary, its necessary premise and confirmation" -Bakunin

I dunno, Ron Paul would be great for about a year and a half before he is forcibly removed in one way or another, making room for even more madness. I suppose either way, he is the rightful president as he's the only one who still wants to uphold the statutes of the country. I think the Tao is in his favour, but there's more to it than that as to whether he'll win. I'm sure the powers that be will frame him with turmoil and turn everything even more upside down. Obama plays ball with the power that be, I think, as there's no other way to do it. I mean really, do you think McCain would have been better? At least the world started in the right direction for something to happen. Don't you have to be a registered Republican to vote on this? I'm not a U.S.of A.ian.

One thing that I haven't much seen addressed in Taoism is socio-economics. An interesting economic structure I've only come across recently is Mutualism as favoured by Proudhon, the father of Anarchism. I have yet to find any Proudhon translations, but Bakunin, otherwise the beginning of the Anarchist movements, was essentially socialist (as I realized while writing this, like a yin yang of right leaning libertarianism, and left leaning socialism). "Deep in his heart every worker aspires to a full life, of material well being and intellectual development, based on justice or equality for every human being longing to live and work in an environment of freedom." -Bakunin, 1869 Part of Anarchism's raison d'etre is for freedom of the workers. So how do people work at equal pays for mutually owned companies? Close consensus among partners in small groups... Right now it's small groups of people employing other people when the company has gotten beyond the capacity for consensus. Anarchism should function without government; so, the "grass roots" needs to help people start small start-ups, and maybe take a small percentage to keep their own work circulating. I just don't think large corporations can fully exist with Anarchist principles. There isn't that much consensus. People have to open their businesses together and become equal partners on smaller ventures and hopefully the inspiration will catch on and more people will be able to do it. Equal contribution is needed for equal pay, so I guess it would be done in percentages. At huge levels of co-operation, there has to be leaders with authority. I guess they have to be pinnacles of virtue, truly "sons of heaven" who keep the Tao in order and harmony while nurturing and allowing the smaller organic entities (Feng Shui could be well employed in modern enterprise) to flourish in harmony with the rest of the garden. What we need is a national gardener to help plant and nurture the social garden; keeping weeds and destructive foliage from ruining the rest, while allowing everything to grow as unimpeded as possible. Right now it's like squirrels and racoons are the only ones tending to the garden. This marriage of right and left is the yin & yang of economics I think... hmmmm.. never thought of that... "I am truly free only when all human beings, men and women, are equally free. The freedom of other men, far from negating or limiting my freedom, is, on the contrary, its necessary premise and confirmation" -Bakunin

http://www.amazon.com/Encyclopedia-White-Magic-Paddy-Slade/dp/0792454286 This is a good book of how the old Celtic and Druidic seasonal changes were celebrated. Oct 31: New Year Eve / Samhain December 21 or 22, Winter Solstice Feb 2: Imbolc March 21 - 22: Vernal Equinox April 30: Beltaine June 21 & June 24: Summer Solstice and Midsummers Day Aug 1 - 2: Lammas September 22 - 23: Autumn Equinox September 29: Michaelmas Oct 31

Stillness in motion Drifting over the waters Wave of a moment Lots to listen to here: http://www.nembutsu.info/music/index.htm "Invocation of the Name. This piece comes from the heart ...yearning for escape and enlightenment, only to realise we have to accept ourselves as we are and in doing so comes serenity and the beginning of real practice. Shikantaza, or 'just sitting,' is alert nonselective attention which neither pursues nor suppresses thoughts, sensations, etc., but, rather, gives alert detached attention to whatever arises in and vanishes from consciousness. [Duration: 04:07] Honte Choshi Koku is a much venerated piece. It is played by all schools of shakuhachi playing and its common title is 'Empty Sky' this refers to the concept of Sunyata. Daishihan Riley Lee writes ...'It refers to a concept that is in the realm of the Absolute and therefore cannot be explained or understood with words. Words, and indeed our thoughts, are of the world of the relative. For example, the word "empty" has no meaning apart from the word "full". The work "ko", on the other hand, does not mean merely "empty", because it is not the opposite of "full"; it is "that" which has nothing to do with "fullness".' The player aims to attain the ulitimate state of enlightenment whilst playing this piece. [Duration: 05:27] Towa no wakare no aika This literally translates as follows: towa = eternal; wakare = separation; aika = elegy or lament, sad song, etc. The expression towa no wakare is a euphemism for death, and the implication, is that the person who is now 'eternally separated' was a loved one or very close friend. Title translation courtesy Daishihan Riley Lee Ekoh This honkyoku came from the Ichigetsuji, in Chiba prefecture. Played on a Shugetsu Yamaguchi 2.85/F# jinashi shakuhachi. Hachi gaeshi (Returning the Bowl) is performed after the monk received alms, usually a bowl of uncooked rice. The monk would then return the bowl and perform 'Returning the Bowl' in an expression of gratitude, for the food which gives him life, and on the part of the donor for the opportunity to give. The temple of Echigomeianji is in Niigata Prefecture. Kyorei is the oldest known shakuhachi piece, a slow quiet piece that is both simple and very challenging to play. It is regarded as one of the most venerated of pieces. Here it is played with 'Kyosui' - empty breath without affectation or tecnical artifice This simple playing style is the essence of Zen. Hifumi Hifumi shirabe - Hifumi means simply "1- 2- 3" This is one of many 'searching' pieces in the classical shakuhachi repertoire. "The meaning of the first three characters in this context is unknown, though they may refer to the 'three jewels' of Buddhism". Daishihan Riley Lee. This short piece can played as a 'way' to search for an awareness of one's present situation. Played 'Kyotaku' style on a 2.85 shakuhachi. Yamato choshi "This version of Choshi is believed to have originated in the Yamato district of old Japan, what is now the Nara region, the site of the first capital of Japan, 13 centuries ago. The Zen tradition of shakuhachi holds that the shakuhachi plays you as much as you play the shakuhachi. This is a renewing of this relationship between the bamboo and the person". Daishihan Riley Lee Played in the 'Kyotaku' way on 2.85 shakuhachi. Yamato Honte Choshi (calligraphy, right), 'Original Searching' - a short prelude style of piece. It serves to help establish the pitch of the instrument and to center the musician. The musician warms up and then settles the mind for spiritual practice through the playing of such a piece. Often refered to as 'Suizen' - Blowing Zen. A high degree of 'one pointedness' or concentration of the mind can be obtained by playing the shakuhachi. Banshiki This piece when played on a 1.9 shakuhachi plays the exact tones of 'banshiki' scale or mode. The piece is associated with autumn and has a sense of space and sadness - wabi sabi. It is a restrained piece and here played with Kyosui - empty breath. It is is a very Buddhist piece; concerned with this life journey with its attachments and feelings towards the release of death.Here it is played on a 2.4 instrument. Chikugo Sashi This comes from the Fuke temple Rinsei-ken, located in Kurume City, Fukuoka Prefecture, in the southern island of Kyushu.This is one of a number of 'Sashi' pieces dedicated to the Bodhisattva Kannon, Buddha of mercy and compassion, who stays in this world of suffering to assist those in need. Clouds & Mountains Inspired by the last trip I made to the southwest of Tasmania , staying amongst the rain-soaked, misty mountains and swirling fogs of this wilderness area. Takane Sashi Takane means 'high sound'. It may have come from Itchoken, Temple Hakata Prefecture, on Kyushu. Played on a 1.8 shakuhachi. Tehodoki Reiho Tehodoki Reiho / Initiation into the Dharma of the Bell refers to the bell of Fuke. The word tehodoki literally means 'leading one by the hand', that is, guiding a novice down the path - Daishihan Riley Lee. Played on a 1.8 shakuhachi.

Nawang Khechog "Nawang was a monk for 11 years and studied Buddhist philosophy and meditation with His Holiness the Dalai Lama and many other Tibetan masters. He also lived as hermit, meditating in the Himalayan foothills for several years under the guidance of His Holiness." I highly recommend this album! http://www.nawangkhechog.com/soundsofpeacecd.php

edit: and I say that because people are attached to a particular understanding of "God." Even some Buddhists pray to "the Heavens" I'm sure, and they know that there is a higher power that they need to humble themselves to. If you want to say "it's all me. There is no Tao, there is no Wuji. It's just there because I made it up, and it will follow me on the way out of existence" then you are more deluded than any wrong views that the Buddha warned about. Really, at the end of the day, I don't think I'm a Buddhist, because I believe there are some circumstances that require destructive action. I see that things are not as concrete as they appear in our limited life times, and that everything has this same nature. That is only half of the Buddhist View. The other side is that I don't reject the existence of phenomena, or a higher power, order, mind, love, balance, etc.. There are laws of science. I don't think Buddhism denies that. There is also a higher power underlying existence, call it Love, Chi, Tao, Wuji, or whatever you like. I don't think they need to be separated any more than emptiness from a mountain. You don't have to agree or believe or accept that, but I find your view of Buddhism to be overly nihilistic and have not been proven otherwise, so I think you are actually wrong on both sides of this issue which makes our correspondence on it quite hopeless..

Well, I wouldn't say it's so much of a short cut given that you'll need to be able to sit in full-lotus for 2 hours continuously first, and also spend quite a bit of time with him I believe too. I dunno, I'm partial to the Northern Quan Zhen style, not that I know a terrible amount about it, but it seems a bit different from the majority of Longmen Pai practices. Some might say the northern schools were too influenced by Buddhism, but to each one's own really. For the most part I find it a bit laughable that so many people have these huge aspirations to be these legendary immortals of the new age, but again, to each one's own. edit: actually, I should say, I can understand why people want to learn more once they hear some of the wisdom of Tao. I just find it a bit odd that so many people expect to match the masters without becoming a renunciate and leaving everything behind as the masters had to do.

I could care less

Very interesting comments from all. I found the water path to occur more spontaneously for me. So I guess doing emptiness meditation, the water path naturally occurs, builds jing in the long run, and the fire path is then used to reverse the flow. Essentially, so striving to build up jing by all these sexual methods are not entirely necessary if your sexual vigour is plentiful as is. This of course would be an age-old inter-school debate. The fire path seems to be a lot more yang, in that it results in more "fire" like (perhaps kundalini like) energy, and the water path seems to have a more stabilizing, caliming, energy, while both of them circulate energy rather than let it drain or cause trouble. I suppose it all comes down to being able to calm and stabilize, and even activate, our energies which benefits in being able to do the same with emotional energies that may obscure Tao in us. Further down the road, some might be able to sort of POP out of their body on this energy as the dragon body? This is speculation on my part, of course, though it's making some sense to me..

@ -K- interesting ideas. what you say about reversing the cultivation sequence sort of rings a bell, since I have read about emptiness meditation cultivating shen first which then becomes qi and then jing. Given that MCO (from the more wu wei approach) occurs from emptiness, I can see how that may very well be. "connecting with the different brains".. hmmm.. this is sort of what I'm looking for, since "Secret of the the Golden Flower" talks about cultivating, well it depends on the translation, but I think the Heart-Mind.. So, yes, open awareness type, I suppose. Also, in sublimating sexual energy it allows more for autonomy of mind, which seems to be a large part of Cleary's translation of "Secret of the the Golden Flower." + @Anamatva, that's what I hear mostly, especially from modern sources, but I still wonder because there seems to be more to it. I guess it's like the DDJ says "after extreme of stillness there is movement" so one has to let the movement move so that they can have the stillness-in-movement and movement-in-stillness. I guess this all leads to Heart-Mind materialization too.

Feel free to start a topic in the General Discussion area. I'm interested in the responses too. There may be some ordained Taoists in the Bay area. There is also a Shaolin center in San Francisco, more authentic than a few in China, where they probably teach Buddhist Qi Gong (mostly hard, martial style), and martial arts. I'm not sure if they would get into Taoist meditation, per se, however... I say it is more authentic because it was started by monks and grandmasters who fled the cultural revolution in order to preserve the Order.

Well, I can't exactly speak for the enlightened, but I think being one with Tao incorporates all things, and keeps what should be kept and releases otherwise. There might be a stage of one's path where they might try to process everything rather than letting it pass through freely, but I think not being attached or hung-up on various things requires a willingness to let them go as much as to accept them. Like Seth said, too, there's different kinds of laughter. Reminds me of a haiku chain moment with Strawdog and myself: The sound of laughter Lingers long through the valley What were we after?