Harmonious Emptiness

Well, though the interpretations might not be Buddhist, I still find plenty of references to phenomena which is confirmed in many other ways. My earliest understanding of this was that Buddhism does not believe in a Creator, but no matter how people want to understand this, there are similarities and they seem to be more and more prevalent the more I read. So, though Buddhism generally espouses that there is no Creator, they have merely replaced the same doctrines with other philosophical understandings, such as the kayas, Amida, and numerous other ways. It's almost like Western culture has incorporated so many other traditions into their religious culture so that they can celebrate these things under their own accepted terms. So, Christians don't believe in the existence of other gods, but they have angels and patron saints that effectively serve the same purpose. Christians don't recognize Celtic seasonal rites of passage, but they celebrate them almost exactly the same ways under different representations. So, you can pray to Amida, or Vajradhara, both representations of Dharmakaya, or even to Buddha, and say that this is entirely different to the beliefs of "Creator" spirituality, but it's just the same dance to a slightly different tune. The practice and the result is what counts, not the clothes we dress them up in. Not to say that you are, but to sit around and act superior due to having "the correct" hand-me-down understanding is the fool-trap of fool-traps.

I think any qi gong set should put you in the right frame of mind.

Yes, it is mentioned in most alchemical texts in one way or another ("Holding Yin, Embracing Yang" is another). The methods that Mantak Chia suggests though are less common, I would say, since he goes more for the "build up insane amounts of energy until it bursts like an oil well" which is more along the lines of Kundalini yoga than what is suggested in Taoist texts which generally follow the Lao Tzu style of achievement. From my untutored perspective, the source texts generally say to practice emptiness meditation and when everything is relaxed and empty, channels will open up and the MCO will start to move. What I would like to know (maybe should start yet another MCO thread) is what does everyone say is the purpose of the MCO, or the effects of the MCO?

Cathartic multi-tasking.. says a lot about some practices.. The second video was creepy. Such a desperation for an experience that he would force laughter in a such a way.. I guess famous gurus have to circumvent a lot of situations like that one. Not a job for judgmental dispositions. At least he still laughs at them too so they might be able to clearly see their own behaviour, and laugh at it in hind-sight..

Sorry, but I have to go with the comprehensive authority of Tsele Natsok Rangdrol on this one again. Your main points seem to fall off the dart board when contrasted to his teachings. Basically, I'm just trying to show that some concepts of God can still hold up within Buddhist framework, though not all of them, of course.. "Your natural essence... ultimately.. has no true existence. Thus, it is a great emptiness free from the limitations of arising, dwelling, and ceasing - the unconditioned dharmadhatu. Since the beginning it is a nature in which the three kayas are spontaneously present, and it is known as the "ground mahamudra of the essential nature of things." The Guhyagarbha Tantra teaches: "This mind-essence devoid of ground and root Is the basis of all phenomena." "This essence is not something that exists within the mind-stream of just one individual person or just one buddha. It is the actual basis of all that appears and exists, the whole of samsara and nirvana."

@Xabir So, you are IT, your mind is EVERYTHING, so you are GOD. Every tradition has said God is in us, like the Zulu who say that everything is a circle with smaller circles inside of it, which all have smaller circles inside of them, etc., etc., and those circles are consciousness. We are consciousness, everything around us is consciousness, and consciousness is God, consciousness is Mind, Consciousness IS

Man, some people are so hopelessly connected to prior conceptions of terms. It's like they think blue is sky because the sky is blue.... Intelligence is quite absurd..

Well, exactly. What you call Mind, others call God. It's just that various authorities and cultures have attributed various things to "God" and so most people think of these attributes when they are talking about God, but a mystic does not limit his conception of God in such a way, other than in words, but even the best words are just empty metaphors at the best of times...

I guess I could even accept an idea of God being dependently originated, since "there is no beginning" God could still have always existed. Also, Buddha spoke about a time span reaching back hundreds of trillions of years when he speaks of tens of thousands of kalpas, so for "The All" to originate around this time, sure, that doesn't really diminish my limited human conception... I can't conceive of any such time frames so they are just as infinite, to me. It doesn't seem to make any sense that humans depend on light and warmth, and light and warmth are dependently originated from other circumstances, but there is still nothing more primary than light and warmth, which itself may have arisen due to circumstances, but which life after that all depended on. And of course, acknowledging this possibility or truth does not mean that someone has to accept the dogma of this or that religion.. It's just further investigation into dependent origination. What were the circumstances that led to "God?" There probably were some. maybe this poem I wrote a while back explains something.. though our understanding is irrelevant to God's existence, the same as it is to the truth of dependent origination I think.. and the earth and beginning always and spinning from initial attraction far from reaction a musical vibration caused anticipation and then came creation and our situation

@Anamatva Yes, I don't see why someone can't fathom that there is a beginning to form. Sure it's nature may be emptiness, but everything started somewhere. Plants need light. What does light need? Energy, I guess. What does energy need? There is a first step or there would be no dependent origination, with everything coming from something. Sure it all goes back to emptiness, but what about step 2 and 3? Could they not be something at the base? That doesn't seem to clash with D.O. at all, by my humble estimation.

"There is no mind-agent or a universal mind, only a mind stream that interdependently originates without a beginning, in fact utterly empty and non-arisen." Going by the quotes I posted earlier, I think this is incorrect according to Buddhist doctrine. Dharmakaya is the mind-agent, inseparable from the other 2 kayas. Once again, "This all-ground, not a mere nihilistic and void nothingness, is self-luminous cognizance that occurs unceasingly." "God can't be a manifestation when it is a source of manifestation" They are all wrapped up in one, in the same way as the 3 kayas. That is what I meant by that.

Right, so just as you don't deny the unceasing flowing of river, I don't deny these inseparable trinities, nor God, that God is a manifestation of them, nor that everything has primordial existence in Nothingness which is the original nature of everything (to use slightly different terms than usual, but I hate to concede that there are less than a multitude of ways to describe Ultimate truth..).

Takin' it back one more time

Wow, amazing. Can I ask which translation of the I Ching you consult? What question did you ask preceding this result? Please PM me if you don't want to publish it..

Yes, I think this kind of autonomous living is going to be a large swing in the future, or I hope it does, that's for sure. The fact you acquired a house, seemingly without a mortgage, though, that is an uncommon characteristic here.. Maybe an organic eco-friendly kabutz lifestyle will grow gobally as well?.. Like Jimi Hendrix said when he was invited to England "as long as they have good amplifiers."

@ full lotus Interesting, but you seem to be thinking with your lower chakra right now, I'm just getting fear and doom from you, rather than forward thinking solutions. Sure, mention the past or present, but what can we do about it. I don't really care about what we can't do about it. Focusing on the shitstorm only keeps you from talking about solutions. Yes, know the past or be doomed to repeat it, but lets talk about what we're going to do differently, no? edit to add: from talking about solutions

You seem to be thinking in the narrow scope of the past though. Yes, cultural fusion has actually been assimilation to Western culture at the expense of others. But, we are starting to see more of a new culture that incorporates what it can learn from other cultures, including shamanism and world views and wisdoms of these cultures, incoporating these into the goals and values of a new society which is open to new members, while not seeking to destroy its various roots at the same time. Fresh water pollution has a lot to do with our energy sources, so I think this issue can be cleared up with new energy sources as well. btw, I'm not looking for a huge political debate, but a forward thinking discussion of where humanity can go from where we are and what we have, and what we can do now with what have, where we are, and what our goals are given the knowledge we have acquired in learning from so many civilizations, including modern science, technology, and ecology both ancient, modern, and arising.

That's true, it probably will evolve in more than one or a few directions. What do you mean exactly by Avatars here?

@Xabir Like Lucky said, you're still not really addressing the points, but just reiterating what you said earlier. You haven't really explained why the following is true, if what you say is true: "This all-ground, not a mere nihilistic and void nothingness, is self-luminous cognizance that occurs unceasingly." "The nonarising essence of the mind itself is dharmakaya, its unobstruced expression is sambhogakaya, and its function manifesting in any way whatsoever is nirmanakaya. These three kayas are again spontaneously present as an indivisible identity." It sounds like you're fully and completely hung up on a nihilistic position, and denying that "emptiness is also form." You can say it is all emptiness, but, as I said, you can only be half right if that's your stance. How is what you say not the Nihilistic point of view that Shakyamuni refuted? I don't think you can't just say emptiness emptiness emptiness emptiness and claim that to be the same as what Buddha taught. Forms may be empty, but not recognizing the other side to that would nihilism. I'm not seeing a constant middle way in your counters...

Not only your eyes, but there is a deep connection through the eyes too....

I'm pretty sure there are 2 different characters for Shen, one being more like soul or spirits, the other being more like "that girls got spirit!", not getting into preceding adjectives, like yin shen. But, yes, do a search on TTB topics about Shen and Spirit, there have been some extensive ones.

@L7S That seems to be the case every time I debate concepts with some of the more evangelical types (like the Evangelical Atheists. Can I coin that term?..). I guess I probably come off as an evangelical type here too, though I'm more out for an inquiry and discussion. Maybe I'm getting too used to it dealing with so many people who do the same type of thing.. At least I have it all in writing HERE..hahaaa!!

Tbh, I think there are few responses here because this title pops up in one form or another probably a few times a year. My un-authoritative understanding is that Taoist Immortality requires about 90% of what is required for Buddhist enlightenment. Buddhism wants to be free from birth and death and suffering "for good" though some will continue in the cycle until everyone is enlightened. Taoist Immortality is not trying to be free from samsara in the same way. I guess it's more like becoming an omnipotent god after death. They are not the same, but in many ways they drive the same car to different destinations. However, if you look at Northern schools of Quan Zhen, the methods are much much more like Buddhism, whereas most other Alchemy schools employ sexual qi gong (eventually, for some time, or continually). I guess part of the reason is that the more vitality you have, the stronger your spirit will be and this will allow you to get further in the quest. This concept is also in Shaolin Chan, but I don't think they ever learn sexual kung fu, which is the same for Northern Quan Zhen mind you. Some of what I've read makes Immortality seem about as attainable as true enlightenment. Others seem like I have more chance flying a rocket to the moon. I'm more concerned with the here and now, personally, but staying in the here and now, one day we might realize the there and then is here and now and here and there and then and now and the moon will jump over the cow

Well, they would consult masters of the I Ching and Feng Shui to decide actions or non-actions in battle, as well as social engineering and protecting reputation and political relationships. That pretty much encompasses the majority of politics, so I'd check that out again. Here's a great documentary on Wu Dang and the relationships with different emperors throughout history. http://english.cntv.cn/english/special/wudang_cradle_of_taoism/homepage/index.shtml Taoists were masters of political theory and philosophy, so it's natural that their services would be employed in the past. The emperors were not shy of magical power. The rulers of today are said to consult occult sciences too, but without much concern for divine consequences as is the case with their environmental and financial actions.

no disagreement there.. The Chuang Tzu is almost a satire, with a side hook of life altering wisdom