Harmonious Emptiness

Creativity and Taoism: A Study of Chinese Philosophy, Art and Poetry, by Chung-Yuan Chang, says "The Treatise on kneeling sitting and bowing from the works of Chu Hsi [maybe Confucian commentator Zhu Xi?] (vol. 68) "The ancients sat by kneeling on both knees and resting back on the upturned soles of the feet."" Also this article about sitting in ancient China: http://www.ourorient.com/2011-07-01-18-52-14.htm "At that time, Buddhism was introduced from India to China. Buddhist monks had a special sitting posture with crossing legs (跏趺). In the Sui and Tang Dynasties, many foreign cultures were introduced into China. However, the normal sitting posture was still kneeling-sitting, so Japanese and Korean learned this sitting posture from China, and now they still keep the posture of kneeling-sitting." Sitting for so long like this would require flexibility comparable to lotus posture, imo, and I don't see how they managed to sit so far back that they were in the soles of the feet. learned a good stretching exercise for after this posture from a Tao Semko video: extend leg in front while sitting, breathe out while flexing feet forward, breath in while flexing feet back. After several repetitions or so, do half circles to each side. I'm sure "breathing through the heels" has other merits from Tai Chi and rooting and maybe something about macro-cosmic orbit, but Chung-Yuan Chang said that sitting on the heels influenced this term. Any other confirmations or knowledge about this??

Pie, Pie, in the Sky Voices to the wind reply Woof! Woof! while birds fly

Another common way: energy is conducted from the palms of your hands, which is why they face towards the dantien during meditation. When there is conductivity, move the hands with the breath and awareness to where you want the chi to go. For my own practice, I would not stop there though. Continue the flow out through the meridians to purge and purify. Be very careful about leaving the chi in one place especially before you have done purging through the meridians. When the purging is done, the chi should move through the body to cleanse it, but absorb into the cells at the same time. Breathe in, breathe out. Breathe in, breathe out. I also recommend standing and allowing the body to sway with the chi for a while afterwards. Then do sitting meditation with no intent and purpose and allow the chi to go where it wants to go for at 20 minutes. Let it massage internally. This is a nice feeling.. If you're feeling cold at all after then you're probably not absorbing enough in the process..

Jian Wu asked Lian Shu, saying, 'I heard Jie Yu talking words which were great I feel like an important lesson from this is about envy. The Spirit-Like-Man showed himself to be immensely simple, "his manner was elegant and delicate as that of a virgin" and yet he was immensely powerful. Jian Wu was probably asking Jie Yu how to make himself more powerful, so Jie Yu showed him that his power is in not trying to be high and mighty. If he wanted only to be high and mighty then he would miss his true value in the same way the the gourd and the knotted tree were thought to be useless because the observer wanted to see what they thought it should be. What I also get from this is about being honest with ourselves. We might want to be strong all the time, but in doing so miss that there is value in having feeling, for example. This might confuse the connections for Buddhists, but so long as those feelings don't become Ego then they are detached, imo..

thank you.

Seriously, even though someone is only a Taoist philosopher, does that mean they've never heard of Taoisms healing and other rituals? Chuang Tzu would have had at least a passing knowledge about this, as would villagers who were healed by Taoist medicine. Chuang Tzu was likely in contact with healers and martial arts masters as well. More than likely, he was even a pupil of one or more masters for some part of his early life. Personally, I would be surprised to find out that he learned everything he did just by reading Lao Tzu, listening to his elders, and sitting in silent meditation, but I'm interested to hear other's thoughts. If he learned on his own, that would certainly vouch for self study as a means to attaining oneness with Tao; though we may also underestimate the virtue of being raised in traditional cultures and the wisdom they might influence on a poet as masterful as Chuang Tzu..

controlled "like a chariot", no. invited, yes, according to many Taoist priests and shamans, so I wouldn't assume that Chuang Tzu had no familiarity with weather influencing practices at a general level or better, regardless of our faiths...

There are different descriptions of the purpose of Zen sitting, but also largely that there is or should be no purpose. Just sit and be aware. So the difficulty, from my perspective, of doing zen and qi gong at the same time is that during qi gong you are doing something, even while doing nothing in the case of some sitting meditations. In Zen you are doing nothing while doing nothing, and in Zen walking meditation, you are doing nothing while walking. So, my suggestion, fwiw, if you want to do Zen while standing, practice with walking meditation. Do do so, sit in meditation for 20 to 30 minutes, then gasho (hands in prayer while bowing, sign of oneness) and walk the perimeter of your room (tracing furniture etc.) for 5 to 8 minutes while keeping the same mind as during the sitting meditation. When you you have the hang of this, you might have a better idea of what to do during standing Zen. Thanks for the link.. I like the swaying movement part especially. Again, this is just my take on it. Its not uncommon for Taoist and Zen meditation to be considered the same, which in many ways they are. I also think there is a difference between meditation for overall health, and meditation for clarity and awareness, though they are mutually beneficial. For me, I think it helps to make the distinction rather than trying to reach one by the other, but I mix them all the same.. my approach is pretty non-linear at this point.. it's not for everyone

True, but, organization happens on ideas. It's the ideas that bring people together on common ground first. This information has to spread until it has a life of its own. Then wars are won before the fight begins. Where do we go? Spread the message. You'd be surprised how fast it can spread. Say 50 people read this. 5 of those people mention it on other chat rooms where 50 people read it. Of those 250, 15 people spread it further. That's how it starts, and it already had momentum before it landed here. That is the power of the masses: to be en-mass, so getting everyone on the same page is like the power of water. Eventually it gets in everywhere as long as it keeps piling up. There's more that can be done to spread the message, but that's how it actually works to overcome longstanding foundations.

yes. you're translation makes much more obvious what I was "picking up" from the others. So, the last part about the 6 chi was talking about Leih Tzu? I thought it was saying "what if someone (hypothetical person) could chariot.." in contrast to Leih Tzu who had to wait for the natural movements of the 6 chi. Not a huge deal, but the other translation seemed to fantasize about the possibility of commanding the 6 chi.

No, I didn't think you were. But this is the ideology that sways people with the same mind as us, so this is more or less the battle: to show them that this ideology, though it seems logical, is total deception. I think there are actually a number of politicians with a decent fraction of integrity, but "every story sounds true until you hear the other side" and they too inundated with the first story to consider the second right now..

If I was going to live on only one grain I would choose millet. If your only eating brown rice, choose organic short grain, and google for nutritional info. I've heard of monks living on millet for months when escaping the Red Flood, but they probably ate dandelion leaves at least too.

I guess I wasn't very clear here: "Seems to be showing the connection between not being in the pursuit of blessings, yet being reliant on the right timing (the wind) or circumstances. Rongzi "still he had not planted himself firmly (in the right position)" and thus did not continue his journey as ruler (it seems to read). Not having thought of self, merit, or fame allows one to avoid the limitations of walking in the world, allowing them to float though it on the wind with no hindrance except for having to wait for the right timing or circumstances which one must be mindful of in order to catch their flight when it's available." So they both were able to transcend the beliefs of others, however, Ronzi did not use circumstance to advantage and so the country fell from him, whereas Leizi knew he was still dependent on the wind and so he was able to travel back and forth in just 15 days. Essentially, Rongzi and Leizi both had virtue like that of the "Perfect man" but Rongzi did not employ favourable circustances, he did not accept that he was still reliant on Tao and so he lost favour with his country by letting it fall to ruin, whereas Leizi rode the wind, he moved with the time, with right circumstances. I guess part of the message here being, too, that someone without thought of self, deed, or fame, must truly be humble enough to accept circumstances and not think "it is beneath me to have to acquiesce to common conditions." Leizi truly had no thought of self. Perhaps Rongzi did not reach the same height of selflessness?

What this reminds me of, is a real traditional South American culture who builds their houses together in a way that they will fall apart soon enough for everyone to get together again. This maintains the connection, bond, respect, etc.. In "consumerist culture" products are made to fall apart so that people keep buying, people stay employed, the wheel keeps turning. This is the rationale, I'm sure, that governments are sold hemp prohibition with. However, those products are cheap because the jobs are overseas and at slave labour wages. The US oil industry has to import huge amounts of oil, and spend billions like every month to influence the exporter countries. I'm sure most people would rather drive a tractor than a tank for a living, and have the security of knowing that there are always crops to be grown and a huge and growing market to sell them to, and there is always ample land to grow the crops (forests are not so reliable as a plant that produces 3 crops per year vs. once every 2 decades). The other issue is that "people want their consumerist lifestyle, they will get bored." Impossible. There will be more time for creating and enjoying cultural diversions and they will be better since they won't be oversaturated by an economy that is reliant on creating useless diversions to keep itself afloat. There are plenty of occupations in a hemp based economy, and it would make every country be able to keep their their own jobs and produce their own resources. So the arguments that it would jeaprodize the economy are false. It would reverse everything that is unstable in the economy's foundations, including the overcentralization of money in the hands of greedy selfish misanthropic people who want to keep everyone in dependence perpetually.

www.votehemp.com is a good organization in the US with interesting newsletters every couple weeks on the progress. You might want to check them out if you haven't already. I think making sell-able products with hemp is possibly the best route right now to increasing its production. It's just so damn expensive still, which is crazy because it's one of the most rugged plants, grows on any land you can grow dandelions, and grows fast fast fast. There needs to be more opportunities for the manipulative profiteers to get in the game rather than only profiting off prohibiting it. All those FDA employees should be involved in growing it instead.. they can fabricate their BS beaurocracy to sit on the shitter and make $100,000 a year, but they need to be on the right side of the fence when doing so.. (hey, if they fertilize for the industrial fibre, their efforts might actually be useful this time.. budum pshh)

I'm not sure what you mean here. Partial?

Here is a mix of the Victor Mair translation (thankfully, Anamatva left an extra part in section A) with parts from the one MH posted in bold: Seems to be showing the connection between not being in the pursuit of blessings, yet being reliant on the right timing (the wind) or circumstances. Rongzi "still he had not planted himself firmly (in the right position)" and thus did not continue his journey as ruler (it seems to read). Not having thought of self, merit, or fame allows one to avoid the limitations of walking in the world, allowing them to float though it on the wind with no hindrance except for having to wait for the right timing or circumstances which one must be mindful of in order to catch their flight when it's available. "Supposing there were someone who could ride upon the truth of heaven and earth, who could chariot upon the transformations of the six vital breaths and thereby go wandering in infinity, what would he have to rely on?" Surely this person would be at least as self-reliant as Rongzi and Leizi, so I suppose: themselves.. Perhaps they have "yin, yang, wind, rain, night, day" at their command within? wind: chi rain: jing yin: allow yang: intent night: cultivation day: shen "The Perfect man has no (thought of) self; the Spirit-like man, none of merit; the Sagely-minded man, none of fame." I like the correlations: "By becoming attached to what is seen of the mind itself, there is an activity awakened which is perpetuated by habit-energy that becomes manifest in the mind-system. From the activities of the mind-system there rises the notion of an ego-soul and its belongings; the discriminations, attachments, and notion of an ego-soul, rising simultaneously like the sun and its rays of light." - Ch. IV, Lankavatara Sutra Not to say that they are the same...

? Ahhhhhhhhalchmy!! 'scuse me.. *sniff*

I'll start with the seemingly obvious: Emperor Yao is trying to give Xun You the throne because the job is basically taking care of itself and he feels that, if he influences the job that is being done, then he will ruin it. Xun You refuses the position because [in this example of Anarcho-Taoism (and no I'm not just biased, it's pretty apparent that they feel active authority will ruin the harmony and balance)] he knows that there is no real job to be done so there is no use in pretending to govern. This of course has wider implications about self. I'll let someone else help with "How are they compared to the way of Master Rong and Lie?", and "What is the different between Master Rong and Master Lie?" I'm liking this method of picking out the questions, XieJia.

Old Green's description is the same as my feeling of it from Taoism, especially in reading sayings by Ancestor Lu in Vitality, Energy, Spirit for 2 or 3 years before learning qi gong movements. Some teachers put it so plainly that makes you leave all preconceptions and grasping.. so what is left when we don't even hold on to the notion of having a self? It's like the universe is playing a beautiful note on its flute.. there is space in the flute so the note is clear but you are the flute so you can't hear the note, but you feel the vibration.. this is Emptiness to me, experientially. Like we are always these flutes, and the Universe is always playing, but we don't feel it until we empty the instrument of ego-clinging-dust. Then we can know emptiness. However, even this idea can clog up the flute and confuse the notes.. or something. I'm being poetic, but I'm sure many people here have experienced something like this numerous times after they put down a book and enjoyed the moment of realization, forgetting ideas of self and mine.. usually until we're struck with thoughts of "oh, shit, I have to protect myself" upon which phenomena and self become "real" or substantial all over again. I've been reading the article that CT posted and it brought me to the following thoughts as well, "for those among us who are relatively quiescent, serene and in no particular rush": The article seems to say, and correct me if I'm wrong, that the "real Emptiness", I'll call it, is only as Nagarjuna spoke of it, which was essentially the absence of any inherent essence of any concept or thing, though the purpose was to show that concepts in Buddhism could and should not hold authority. to quote: for Nagarjuna the goal was the "reductio ad absurdum (Skt. prasanga) of all opposing theories" in a critical method that consists of "convincing an opponent of the falsehood of his own thesis without at the same time offering a counter-thesis." Nagarjuna was thus less concerned with "radical negation in the realms of logic and ontology as he was with a radical, self-composed letting go as the way to full enlightenment." Then he mentions that Suchness was applied to Emptiness as a later Chinese addition : Here, then, in both Hua-Yen and T'ien T'ai was a clear, positive appreciation of the concrete world seen in light of emptiness, [..] At the same time, sunyata in Chinese and Japanese Buddhism came also to be connected with the idea of the absolute truth body (dharmakaya) of the Buddha (itself considered both transcendent and immanent) and with the idea of tathata (suchness) as representing the totality of reality in both its transcendent (li) and phenomenal (shih)aspects. So (not that you previously vouched for every word in it, I see it is a good summation of the history) the author seems to say that the correlation of Suchness to Emptiness was a later addition to the teaching/perception by Hua-Yen (600+ C.E.). However, in The Lankavatara Sutra, (translated by Dharmaraksa from Sanskrit circa 260-290 C.E.) Buddha explains "Suchness" and "Ego-lessness" in essentially the same way as Nagarjuna arrives at Emptiness: by removing what appears to be until there is nothing to perceive but "Suchness". So, in my perspective, Nagarjuna was also illucidating Emptiness to reveal "Suchness" and "Egolessness", so it would not be incorrect to equate them all, or at least, when you realize Emptiness, you experience Suchness and Egolessness; or, to know Suchness and Egolessness is Emptiness. from The Lankavatara Sutra, chapter IV:

Thanks Xie Jia. These images do help to bridge the gap. I wouldn't underestimate the possibility of these correlation chains. Just look at 5 element tables to see how things connect at very subtle levels in many things Taoist. I also wouldn't fully discount a poet using similar sounding names to signify something that does not have the same meaning. Do Chinese not use puns as well?

@Marble: ok, if there's no backseat driving allowed then I'll just put on my seatbelt and enjoy the scenery .. @Xie Jia.. good point about possible representations of yin and yang. There's no doubt that Chuang Tzu understood the mysteries at this level, so it would seem natural that his images would represent them. This story reads differently depending on which angle you look at it from, and I believe Chuang Tzu did so intentionally to break people's need for everything to make sense by having contradictory interpretations which all make sense at the same time. I think that on a certain level K'un and P'eng do not know what it means to be small, as part of the meaning is that the small should not think that they understand being big, and the big should know that the small also have what they need for themselves. P'eng is the lofty mind of a sage, vast and spacious, but those who only live in structural concepts can't understand this person's behavior; while at the same time the quail also represents the sage who wanders freely looking up at the big and powerful and laughing at people's desire to be like them. So, P'eng is both the sage who does understand the petty jealousies of the small enough to avoid them; and the powerful who does not know what it's like to be a sage. This also is in line about them being yin and yang, changing, and having yin within yang and yang in yin.

edit: how to use PM button.. ....

In my experience, however unimportant yet true nonetheless, Zen helped me to flow through rough waters without getting pinned to the jagged boulders that would have otherwise caught me. It is direct and straight to the point, providing a direct experience of the philosophies, it is about knowing the mind of Buddha, and the practice focuses on that first. Most sutras, it might be said, focus on seeing the world and living in a way that allows for this mind to be. It maybe was more simple to become a monk in India than in China and Japan, so the monks there focused on the most direct route available which was, or is, sitting with no particular purpose and being aware of where you are with no rejection or grasping of the moment. There is no-one who cannot do so and there is no other mind to know but open awareness.. this is the mind that we leave behind when we enter states of anger, greed, covetousness, envy, pride, deuling with dualism, and generally loosing charge of our own energy, emotions, beliefs, resulting in us forgetting that we have everything we need, want, and are searching for, our radiant jewel of Awareness, residing in the mind that is always there. Especially as a Westerner, I find that Zen is often presented from the perspective of: "in 30 seconds how can the Mind be pointed to?" This may seem commodified to some, but finding it in the rush of modern day life has parallels with doing so in Feudal Era Japan, but what they lacked in time and safety, we lack in peace and quiet.