Harmonious Emptiness

Green sprout, pokes through black chirping bird songs of the breeze strong wind on bees knees

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Are you sure snowmonki? I've never seen a Chinese calendar with 5 rings on the outside, I guess they are the hours? I'm not able to read Chinese, but I thought it was a 5 element correspondence chart. It had 5 rings with different sets of 5 at each point around the circle, then arrows between them like 5 elements correspondences. I'm interested to know more about it myself. Was it explaining different correspondences between elements depending on the order that the elements were grouped together???

Well, what this will contribute to your learning, is in recognizing that new spiritual experiences are as fragile as they are subtle. As Native Americans are very protective of power dreams, so should we be of power experiences. They need to be nurtured in the womb before it is safe to bring them out in the open. Before they have grown to maturity and taken shape for us in a way that can survive the structured existence, they need to be kept inside. Otherwise, they will flee like birds from grasping hands. I'm sure we all enjoyed the post, but in that case it may have been better for you to talk about other things in the meantime. Lucky for you, you have an effective guide to talk with about these things, however.. looking forward to your insights, sounds like a fruitful path

Well said Marblehead, I`m surprise you know this much about it actually.. I agree that there will still be some government necessary, but that government would have to recognize the same principles. Basically, the government would protect this structure from those who would take advantage of and destroy it. If you didn`t respect others freedom, then you wouldn`t deserve the benefits, however their was a more enlightened look in regards to the penal system as well. I wouldn`t be surprised if recidivism benefits from magic mushrooms would be employed (for those willing to participate) as well (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concord_Prison_Experiment). So, as I said, I think the value of Anarchy is its core philosophies which ought to be studied by and incorporated into government, law, commerce, etc.. The USA was actually held with some admiration by Bakunin for their Federalist system, though of course there were points of contention due to class situations and other restrictions. Though now Jefferson is basically considered as little more than a terrorist by Homeland Security.

Thanks for your response and comments deci belle! From my own perspective on Anarchism, it's essentially something to be incorporated into the social-political set up. It doesn't have a mode of production on its own, which is why there is anarcho-socialism, anarcho-communists, anarcho-capitalitsts, and mixes between them as well. My preferred version had everyone work on a farm for 3 years, and then being provided food and basic shelter for the rest of their lives, while those who want more can become capitalists or work for capitalists, but if they want to drop out of that they will always be provided for by those continuing to work on the farms. "" Taoism's function is a cultivation of secret anarchy. It doesn't have to oppose. This is authentic iconoclasm, for it has no need, or functional apparatus for opposition. Opposition can indeed be effected, but opposition or rejection is not what defines it. In this respect, taoism does not support government from without, only because it doesn't see it as something to oppose. "" Unfortunately, at least 80% (in my estimation) of the people who call themselves anarchists while they break store windows and so forth, don't even know who Proudhon and Bakunin are, let alone having read their writings. Anarchism in itself is not bent on destruction. It respects people's lives more than anything else.. that is why it exists -- because all the "modes of production" are more concerned with the production than the people producing or being produced for. The problem with Anarchism right now is that even the so-called Anarchists don't realize that it's essence is in its ability to make people reconsider power over other people, and how this is immoral at least 90% of the time. If people in government, law enforcement, and commerce all knew this then the human race would be allowed to thrive. If the morality of Anarchism were to penetrate these levels of society then Anarchism would achieve it's goal seamlessly, which is the desire of true Anarchists. This is why true Anarchists fight with art rather than arms. It's a cultural revolution that fits with any mode of production when it's morals are realized and implemented in society. It's really the same battle that's been fought for since the beginning of oppression..

If I had to choose one chapter from the Chuang Tzu for someone to start with, I would say "The Old Fisherman." http://terebess.hu/english/chuangtzu3.html#31 In this chapter, Confucius is taught the importance of "the Truth," sincerity, or what many now refer to as "keepin' it real." However, there appears a deeper and wider acknowledgment of "The Truth" in this chapter. Simplicity, The Tao, Openness What is - "The Truth"?

Hmm, I see I searched it by date instead of relevance.. I was going to just revive an old one but didn't see it. oh well, there it is...

Okay, sorry for jumpin' the gun everyone.. I thought the party already started.. whoops! I will start looking up some stuff to add for "The Inner Chapters." If I find other things I'll just put them in the Taoist Discussion for now and maybe they will be addressed as we go through the chapters. By the way, my topic post on Taoism & Anarchy wasn't meant as a jibe about this.. it's just a topic I've been meaning to post for a while now and then found something that prompted doing so. I think it's a very important basis for discussing Chuang Tzu's philosophies as well.. So, my apologies if it came across as antagonistic..

from The New Testament, John chapter 5: 16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. 17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. 19 We love him, because he first loved us. 20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

I really like how this chapter brings an important message of successful and effective leadership in reminding us that the leader is actually the lowest servant since their job is to help all the other people to do their parts. This is actual job of the leader -- to ensure that the "subordinates" are able to do their job effectively, by providing them with the resources, organized planning, and information they need to do their part. Taking this role in this proper way is rarely understood, but subordinates have much more respect for a leader that works this way, as discussed in chapter 77 ("the humble will be exalted"), and people will also be happier to work harder, in harmony, for someone who works for them in this way even though they don't necessarily have to. It works like magic as a trickle down effect of workplace morale, ime.

I forget who said: "Descartes said 'I think therefore I am.' What about when you're not thinking? This is where Zen begins." Also, one of the most important things when liberating the self from the ego is recognizing thoughts of "cool, I liberated myself." This is an obvious sign that you haven't, since you are believing in an ego that has been liberated. The Diamond Sutra speaks about this extensively.

reminds me of Liu I Ming's "Awakening to the Tao"; holes become filled, mounds are leveled, he who exhalts himself will be humbled...

Thanks for that post. I can speak as a musician, that there are times when the silence dictates and it become more about letting the silence speak and be heard, while the notes just sort of connect the dots. I think that's more or less the purpose of some music, to draw attention to the nuance of the silence, using sound to interpret it for the listener. I suppose silence generally has it's own vibrations as well. There is still a harmony happening there. This is more or less where I came up with my name too as sometimes I feel like that silence is what I am.. or what we all are.. I suppose everything is.... Beautiful that you've been able to hear it I believe this has a lot to do with the reason why traditional Native American elders will often be in silence together, 30 to 45 minutes at times, before they even begin to say anything. Their traditions hold Silence with tremendous reverence and respect. I think it may have been Black Elk who referred to "the silence that white men fear." Well, more of us are more tuned in now, I'd like to think, but there is certainly something being said there.. H.E.

Okay, I thought the topics were just going to be the concepts and then people would bring in references from different chapters and life, etc.. I agree, your set-up will be better and more thorough. I think we should allow for some random question topics to be posted here though. It might get too dry and slow moving if we have to wait in line for each chapter. Why don't we do both maybe? We could go chapter by chapter, and also have more random concept topics. This would allow for more ongoing discussions and allow people to freshen it up if the other topics leave little room for interpretation.. whadd'yall think?

Can we make this like an appetizer anyways? I think it's deserving... I'm sure the other posts will be attended to as well. I mean come on, we can't talk about The Chuang Tzu without some randomness.. I think the Tao is present enough @ TTB to handle it

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I dunno, since it's just the concepts, which appear throughout, rather than the chapters, would it not be most interesting for anyone to just start threads on whatever they want to talk about? rather than doing one at a time? This might keep it flowing better, rather than just going one concept at a time. More concepts may appear this way too I think, and I think the openness of it would bring in more respondents and posters. This is the more Chuang Tzu way to do it, imho. P.S. I wasn't under the impression that there were specific formalities.. hence posting...

just to toss in my 2 cents again - I think a distinction needs to be made between lust and sexual/vital energy. There is an obvious link, but I believe that when the word "lust" is used in English it is connoting a need, or at least perceived need, for sexual gratification. When lust is spoken of in the Yellow Emperor's medical treatise, he says one should have a "moderate lust" as translated, but I don't think he's talking about lust in way that Europeans have come to see it, from the Christian perspective, as this evil drive that leads men to do evil things. I'm pretty sure he's just saying that one should have sexual potency, and moderate at that, in order to be abundantly healthy. If they have too much sexual potency then they are driven to needs and cravings, rather than just a feeling of health and vitality. When the Christian hell-fire demon lust comes in, then love is obviously absent, but from the European perspective, sexual energy is not viewed as energy without its attendant desires. These desires and cravings are deleterious, or thieves, from both the Taoist and Buddhist perspective, though Buddhism doesn't so much recognize sexual energy without it's attendant desires either, since Buddhism does not specialize in physical health as well. However, Buddhism does make use of this energy, imo, though not really caring too much what it was before the stage of transformation into spiritual elevation.

If you're drinking sage tea: MAKE SURE YOU DRINK GREEN SAGE, BECAUSE WHITE SAGE IS TOXIC TO DRINK. According to Kenneth Cohen, a well respected healer in Native American traditions, you should sage/smudge yourself head to toe before smudging other people, places and things. Also, he says that the room should be well ventilated so that negative energies can escape. Smudging with dried cedar leaves is excellent, since it both dispels negative energies and draws in positive energies. It is also used very often in Native American ceremony for these reasons. Do be very careful when walking with and especially lighting the cedar though, as it will drop embers. Also be sure to ask the tree before taking branches and it may sort of put one out for you which it willing to spare .

I've got a couple of books on Aboriginee myths and legends. Great stories to educate kids and anyone else about life and human nature. http://www.amazon.com/Myths-Legends-Australian-Aborigines-Ramsay/dp/0486427099

Cyber Sand Garden Where indistinguishable Turds and trolls are one

One thing about sex and attraction and desire, I think, is that there is difference between desiring something, and enjoying something. desiring is desiring to make something happen or to make something yours that is not yours. Enjoying is enjoying something that is happening. Is it possible to just have sex without desire, but with enjoyment of the moment? It would take some discipline anyways, but I suspect this is key, and maybe part of Hindu Tantric sexual practice (would be cool is Seth was reading this..)?

Dangit! I'm hungry! better watch what you eat 'cause it might make you sleep it might make sleep like little bo peep.. watch out! for your sheep. Don't step!.. (Aww Shiiit...) For your sheep, don't step to the beat, don't swallow the meat: It's.. Brush your teeth