Harmonious Emptiness

Looking at the 8fold path, we have Right View or Understanding Intention Speech Action Livelihood Effort Mindfulness or Meditation Concentration It is an easy argument to say that Buddhism is much more list oriented than Taoism, but how do we see these foundational guidelines in Taoism? I like this question For right view, this may be difficult as right view in Buddhism, in my understanding, is about seeing the transitory nature of life, and how it goes back to Emptiness. The view in Taoism, going back Wuji, is not the same though comparable. Where they do meet however is in seeing the transitory nature of everything, and Chuang Tzu especially speaks about how people place so much importance on material things and superficialities without seeing that they do not provide what people are after. In effect, these two positions are very very similar, imo, since they both reduce people's suffering regarding so many things by saying "let it go. It doesn't actually matter in the long run. Focus on the important things rather than deluded senses of self and other." I'm out of time for right now, but maybe someone will want to continue from here on Right Understanding. Or move on to right Intention, or make a new thread about this whole thing. It's a bit scholastic, but I think it will be fun at the very least.. Each point could have lots and lots of considerations. Also, as to reasons for the Buddhist Discussion forum, I like it because Buddhism is an important part of most modern Taoism so it should be discussed in depth, imo, but that would also make the forum seem like it makes no distinction between the two as the Buddhist discussions would dominate for long periods of time. Plus the GD is moving pretty fast so I think the sub forums are useful to keep these topics going at all times without suppressing other topics or not getting too deeply into not Taoist discussions..

Most responses about YJJ at TTB seem to say that it is just a stretching exercise that can be done along with any other qi gong. It's movements are very similar to many qi gong movements and when done with the proper breathing I think has definite energetic flows. I saw a video once which explained all the uses of each movement for stretching and cleansing different organs, but I'm not sure where it is. Your teacher said it could damage your spleen? Please share...

There's an anecdote about Thich Nhat Hanh where a student asks him a similar question -what is the point when everything is transitory?- his response was approx., "see that cup over there on that shelf? Someone gave me that cup. It's very special to me, very beautiful, and fragile. I know that one day, someone will accidentally knock it off the shelf and it will be shattered. There's nothing I can do about this without putting it in a box and never enjoying it. So, I just enjoy it all I can until that time, knowing that I won't have it forever. The same answer applies to this life and all those things in it. We love them as long as we can, while we can, knowing that they will not last forever. Then when they are gone, we have (hopefully) developed sufficient detachment with impermanent things to let them go. But until that time, I'm going to appreciate this cup with full presence." in "God in All Worlds" compiled by Lucinda Vardey

So, coming back to my previous thoughts.. I'm sure we are all rather honoured that you would come here to ask for advice on this as well.. So, down to business... You should really look into finding a good lawyer before you go into business, no matter how perfect the other person may seem. There's a good Irish proverb regarding poker games "Always trust your mother; but cut the cards anyways." Or as Jesus said "I send you out as sheep among wolves; so be as shrewd as a serpent and harmless as doves." Look at a snake.. does it trust easily? not at all. In fact look at any animal and observe how aware they are. You just have to think about approaching a bird and it will fly away. This is because they have a strong po-metal-lung spirit which allows them to trust their instinct. People shut this ability out to the point that many don't even believe it exists. Pay attention to cats -- they also exhibit this ability to know who they are dealing with.. you will benefit greatly by listening to this instinct as being thrown in with all the "players" all of a sudden, some of them will see you as easy prey. See my signature at the bottom -- I recommend this book as well, and this type of attention gives an advantage in pressing situations. Now, all of that said, I would say that the option with your friend's uncle sounds excellent. You will be making more money with which you can help more people, and it sounds like a very conscientious operation as those things go. Just be sure you have an experienced lawyer that you trust, sort of like signing a pre-nuptual agreement, and don't take the uncle's offer to use his lawyer or suggestions for a lawyer.. You'll want to speak with someone who can explain how to make sure you're getting your dividends. I'm sure this guy is generally trustworthy, but how many people would you trust to hold onto 100,000? Sadly, most people shouldn't trust their own uncles that much . You can do a lot of good things with your money, especially if you don't have a taste for extravagance. With the right mind set, you can do a lot more with a lot more money. Look at money like love. Love yourself, love other people. The more love you have, the more love you can give. At the same time, love can cause a lot of pain when the lover is used and not loved back; however, that doesn't mean we should only give it to people who will give it back to us. It's nice to help people without expecting anything in return. Keep in mind along way though, that charity can encourage dependence so it's better to help people help themselves. Also, a lot of charity is "poor people in rich countries giving money to rich people (governments) in poor countries." Maybe you knew this already, but those are my thoughts on it which I wanted to make sure anyone in your situation is aware of.. ConGRATuLAtions!!!!!

Thanks Simple Jack, that was an enjoyable read. I also wanted to add something that I overlooked earlier, and that is that the Sangha also comprises of all the teachers and Buddhists of the past. So in taking refuge in the Sangha, we can also think of all the writers and teachers that inspire us, as well as all those who try to "turn towards the Dharma."

Hi Bellevolent, I'm glad to see that you have not lost your spiritual convictions in coming into contact with a vast sum of money, and that you have not lost sight of the important things in life. I hope you will be able to inspire others with less fortunate circumstances to view the important things as well; without this perception we all live life in vain as we start to serve things which have no true reality, ie., the material goods of the world rather than the spirit that resides within us.. I have to get going right now, but will continue soon.. In the meantime, I will add that the Taoist I Ching will be of immense value in helping you to walk alongside the stream without falling in.. to be poetic, as is the I Ching. I think you will most like the Liu-I-Ming commentary if you don't have this one already. talk soon. best

I think that for the monks to engage in warfare would have been too contradictory to their beliefs. So, if they COULD do these magical things to destroy the lives of 100's of thousands of soldiers who themselves were basically victims of delusion and samsara, they would have abstained from going back on their vows by even trying to do harm with their power. It's also like, when a crazy deluded crack head on the curb starts yelling stuff at you, do you get angry and kick them in the face? You know that it's just nonsense and don't get involved. It was probably the same thing, except that the monks also had vows. I think the "Tantra Bombs" would only affect the soldiers karmically, speeding up reciprocation rather than acting directly, and the highest monks would not allow themselves even ill will towards the players in the game from my understanding. I think most high level monks would not trade their adherence to The Path for their own life, and fighting may have caused more civilian casualties as well.. I don't know much about the Buddhist view on violence aside from abstaining from it.. Shaolin monks say that they will only return the energy projected towards them so the aggressor is committing suicide by trying to kill one of them. In life there is an unfortunate balance, imo, where some things must be cleared out which, self-servingly, persistently obstruct the "greater good". edit: of course, not to be misunderstood that conquering Tibet was for the greater good.. I don't see there was more motivation than power.

For general flexibility, strength, and endurance, in an environment of people who don't really care about whether someone can kick their ass or not, I recommend capoeira. Lots of flexibility, stamina, balance, and strength required to do it. If you're looking for something connected to Eastern philosophy then it's not really there, but it tends to draw a lot "conscious" people all the same.. Also the momentum, rhythm, flow, etc. will be even more fun after doing Aikido

I never said anything about it being easy.. or really even trying to say that this is an answer. Just wanted to hear people's thoughts about this idea, which is what you added, so I'm glad someone FINALLY chimed in with their perspective on it..lol. Also, obviously it's not the same every time, but I think a lot of people die in peace who have not spent their whole lives dedicated to specific spiritual practices, and personally, I think this has to do a lot with being able to accept it. Anyhoo, here is a quote from The Sutra of Hui Neng which also makes me consider that the idea in the original post might be worthy of discussion: "At another assembly the Patriarch spoke as follows: What is dhyana? It means, first, to gain full freedom of mind and to be entirely unperturbed under all outward circumstances, be they good or otherwise. What is the difference between Dhyana and Samadhi? Dhyana is the effort to be mentally free from any attachment to outer objects. Samadhi is the realisation of that freedom in inward peace. If we are attached to outer objects the inner mind will be perturbed. When we are free from attachment to all outer objects, the mind will be at peace. Our Essence of Mind is intrinsically pure; the reason we become perturbed is simply because we allow ourselves to be carried away by the circumstances we are under. He who is able to keep his mind serene, irrespective of circumstances, has attained true Samadhi. To be free from attachment is Dhyana; to realise inner peace is Samadhi. When we are able to hold the mind concentrated, and to rest in inner peace, then we have attained both Dhyana and Samadhi. The Bodhisattva Sila Sutra says: "Our Essence of Mind is intrinsically pure." Learned Audience: let us each realise this for himself from one momentary sensation to another. Let us practice it by ourselves, let us train ourselves, and thus by our own effort attain Buddhahood."

The sound of laughter Lingers long through the valley What were we after?..

Do you ever hear your pulse in your ear when you lie down to sleep? I get that sometimes. It might be that your pulse is beating stronger, but I couldn't tell you if that's in a good way or too much, or neither.. I don't really know much about it, but if it's worrisome you might want to make sure that the herbs you're taking do not push the heart too much. An herbalist might recommend different herbs to balance them if so, but I wouldn't experiment too much with that... Also, a lot of herbs should not be taken if you have any heart issues, so you should make sure of that too if you have a "herbal regimen."

Hi TzuJanLi, I agree with your position, especially about the military industrial complex being used to combat the causes of war, ie. scarcity, with peaceful and preventative productivity (especially in the area of hemp fuel, imo). What I have heard as an argument against redistributing unreasonable excess though is that if there wasn't oodles of money to be made then people wouldn't invent new things and civilization would not progress. I think it would progress in other more important ways, but money is a better motivator than force which often becomes the motivation when things are distributed more equally regardless of vocations. I personally have faith in humanity, but I also know that there are always greedy power hungry people who manage to take control of everything and screw up what everyone would be capable of working together for the greater good. One option I like, from Paul Goodman, is to have everyone work on farms for 3 years of their life, and then be provided basic food and shelter for the rest of their lives. Anyone that wants to make more money can work and become capitalists and the rest.. however, there will still be the greedy power hungry people that will allow the capitalists to own natural resources and exploit other people.. I'm still undecided on what should be done.. but I think the military could definitely be put to better purpose on growing energy crops (hemp produces 10 times the amount of fuel than corn) and other self-sustaining operatives.

Thank you for bringing that... Hmm. So the symbol depends on past karma, which may be erased by being in Buddha Mind, Dhyana, etc.. So if one is truly in Dhyana at that time, then.... But, still, to be in Dhyana at that time I believe requires cleansing of karma throughout one's life, practicing non-attachment. This reminds me of another verse, near the end of The Surangama: Manjusri: "While I am addressing my Lord Tathagata, he is hearing, at the same time, the transcendental Sound of Avalokiteshvara. It is just as though, while we are in quiet seclusion of our Dhyana practice, there should come to our ears the sound of the beating of drums. If our minds, hearing the sounds, are undisturbed and tranquil, this is the nature of perfect accomodation" Seems that this discipline is necessary almost, and that it helps one to understand the discipline needed at the last time. Perhaps to look at life with same resolve as one would have at the last time is useful to understand Dhyana/non-attachment here, and now...

I just realized as I'm writing this, that this is exactly what ion was talking about in some previous comments which I wanted to start a new thread about... Well, sometimes things just come together I suppose, like some macro-cosmic countrapuntal symphony.. ha ha ha http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/20515-music-that-increase-consciousness/page__p__291302__hl__counterpoint__fromsearch__1entry291302 from http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/20539-do-we-require-guidance-to-reach-enlightenment/page__st__96

I have to wonder, with all the printed texts of the best teachers in history that are available today, is the task not far more accessible than in the past? I would not argue against finding the right teacher though. The same as with learning music or anything else, we can learn and learn on our own, but then when a master sees your technique and suggests something, they can potentially save you years in getting to another level by pointing out things we don't see on our own. That said, in merely understanding what the Buddha meant, I think there are so many angles that can be learned from to try and get a 360 degree view of what he meant. However, again, to see our application of that with all the mistaken assumptions or oversights, the right teacher is a blessing. Nevertheless, I think "the right teacher" is very important as they will be able to work with what we know and grow on that. I find teachers of any discipline can sometimes disregard the students direction and try to build them into their own image of what is correct. Sometimes old habits need to be broken down to solidify a foundation, but "perfect technique" might not be the "best technique," at least I can see this in musical training and feel like it might crossover in spiritual training. There have been times when I was doing something "improperly" and was told to abandon it and learn the "proper" way, only to later realize that some of the best use the "improper" way. Though a stubborn student will just spin in the same ditch if he's never willing to discard some things to make room for others. just some thoughts...

Also, I was reading The Sutra of Hui Neng today and came across this part (probably why I had this impression before..) http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/bb/bb30.htm

Helpful posts Cow Tao. How about your thoughts on taking refuge in the Sangha? Does someone have to be connected to a group of Buddhists in order to fulfill this? And either way, what would you say it means to "take refuge" in the Sangha?

Very interesting discussion and points here.. I suppose my overall goal is to have more awareness in daily life which reduces suffering and allows me to be more present and give more of myself. At the same time, I feel that the bliss during meditation sort of cleans out a lot of the junk that keeps me from being able to have and share goodness with people. Finding the bliss in meditation allows me to know that there is still bliss in the minimal, and also that I will not loose that "basic goodness" if I have nothing else. Basically bliss brings me in the right direction. It's not about pleasure, but connecting to "basic goodness" which is like a magic elixer that allow for more patience which allows for more awareness, courage, and love...

@ Seth I'm glad you posted this, as I had the same impression. What I also wonder about is how broad Sangha can be.. Does it have to be an organization of other Buddhists who have taken refuge in the Three Treasures? Or can it be just the Buddha nature that exists in everyone? Usually if we speak to this nature in someone it becomes that which is speaking back to us. If we walk around seeing people's Buddha nature, then we are surrounded by opportunities to take refuge in our Sangha maybe. It would be nice to have access to Buddhist monks all the time, but that just isn't possible for most people I think, and not all monks are more perfect than the average person on a good day.. Further, if I feel like the available temples are not where my path is at, does my own meditation cushion become the Sangha? I wonder what the consensus on this is as well ?

[don't think I'll make a new topic since it's something that can be discussed in others right now..] on the above quote, I'd also like to say that Buddhism is not so much about destroying the ego, but simply realizing that it is an illusion (edit: though in effect these are the same things..). Also, this realization is not just for mankind but works from an individual level, sort of like "take care of yourself and you'll take care of your family, take care of your family and you'll take care of society, etc." There is always the issue of "why me?" or "why not me?" regardless of the social structure. When these questions are of no value to a person, they surely can consider the needs of others more often; however, I think aiding society is more a residual effect than the primary motivation of the realization, since freeing individuals this way is more efficient, complete, and durable, imo..

Intellectual percolations here... I'm going to say that there is Earthly Enlightenment, and there is Celestial Enlightenment. Earthly is seeing the true reality of ego dust ( you like that term ? You can use it... ? Celestial Enlightenment is Rainbow Body et all To stop playing and living in make believe... this is, imo, the first goal towards peace and harmony and Earthly Enlightenment To know "primary enlightenment" (made that one up m'self...) is more than enough to change the hegemonic consciousness towards wisdom.. ??

Should be a weekend Bring the breath into each day Exhale all week long

This and the other related ideas in this post is worth a topic of its own in the Buddhist discussion, imo. It is something very real but less discussed about the ego, that of the "itemizing and conceptualizing nature" and how we define ourselves this way, taking a bit of this and a bit of that and putting our identity together. I think this is more related to the "super-ego" than the ego, but they are both part of the whole illusion. You mentioned how people would not need to dismiss the ego if society was not set up in such a way that it dominated everyone's realities. I would agree that it would be much less of a problem, much much less of a problem, but still I'd say that seeing the true reality of it would have tremendous influence on all of the problems which have always existed in every culture regardless of how tribal the upbringing. I think I will make a topic about this, to look at the ways that we take external things and build on the illusion.. I hope CT will overlook the reflexive swipe too..

in regards to the immediate topic, just to chime in with a 3rd perspective: I think there is an easy balance between what you are both suggesting. On one hand, some people can easily see the emptiness of everything that accentuates ego and so it loses it's pull. On the other hand, we are still human and so I think there is always a risk of these things basically smothering our right views out of us, and this is why it's important to keep with the other tenets of the 8fold path as well. This would require some amount of simplifying and minimalizing or "toning things down." I can't speak for ion though on to what extreme he means by "toning things down." As much as Buddha preached the "middle path" he was EXTREME man. Wearing only throw away rags from cemeteries? how many monks would even do that? First of all, not many people have the courage to be that eccentric...