tccii

Hi Mark, Thank you for the comment. Yes, we did discuss this point "off the record." We agreed to leave it "off the record" in order to avoid introducing unnecessary bias into the reader's mind based upon this information. In my opinion, which I mention in the paper, one of the great strengths of Fabrizio's work is that he translates faithfully and with great care while generally avoiding sectarian viewpoints. This provides the reader with the key tools to understand the work in its historical context and also at the level of "Dao." With this information it is rather easy (well I should say easier, because it is not easy!) for a practitioner to relate it to his or her particular lineage. I give a brief example in the paper of how one might read a single passage from the viewpoint of a few traditions. Even that example is far from exhaustive. As you can imagine, interpreting the entire work from the viewpoint of even one lineage would result in a book at least as long as the present volume.

You are welcome! I am glad to hear you picked up a copy of his excellent book and hope you enjoy reading it!

Hi Rainy_Day, Thank you for undertaking a task as challenging as translating some of the Taoist classics. There are so few people doing it relative to the vast corpus of material it is always nice to see someone jump in so enthusiastically. You may already be aware of this, but there are a few resources available that can help you with some of the terminology. First I would suggest Isabelle Robinet's essays on Nei Dan "The World Upside Down: Essays on Taoist Internal Alchemy." Second, Fabrizio Pregadio's recent translation of the The Zhou Yi Can Tong Qi provides extensive commentary on the meaning of the esoteric language used in Nei Dan. Since Pregadio provides the original Chinese, you can also see how he translates certain common phrases. As you probably know, the Can Tong Qi is one of the most important source texts of Nei Dan. It strongly influenced much of the later literature. You are undoubtedly aware of the many pitfalls facing the translators, but I go into some detail about the specific challenges facing the translators of the Nei Dan classics in our recent paper called Interpreting the Ancient Codes. It also includes an interview with Fabrizio Pregadio and a review of his translation of the Can Tong Qi. There is a thread about it here. Again, thank you for your work in this area!

You are quite welcome!

We have recently published a review of Fabrizio Pregadio's new book on the Can Tong Qi along with an interview of him in our paper: Interpreting the Ancient Codes Exploring the Classics of Taoist Alchemy An Introduction to the Zhou Yi Can Tong Qi TCCII Publications, 2012 Contents 1) Introduction 2) Interview with Fabrizio Pregadio (see this topic for an excerpt) 3) Book Review of the Can Tong Qi (see this topic for an excerpt) 4) Essay on Interpreting the Ancient Codes 5) Resources for Further Study Interpreting the Ancient Codes paper is available as a free PDF download from TCCII.

We've just published a review of Fabrizio Pregadio's The Seal of the Unity of Three, A Study and Translation of the Can Tong Qi (Golden Elixir Press, 2011). The full review is included in our paper Interpreting the Ancient Codes available as a free PDF download from our site. Here is an except from the review posted on our blog for those who don't want to click off this site: The Zhou Yi Can Tong Qi is one of the most important texts in the practice of Nei Dan, or Internal Alchemy. It correlates the three major classics of ancient China: The Huang Di Nei Jing (Yellow Emperor's Internal Classic), Yi Jing (I Ching or Book of Changes), and the Dao De Jing. This short text is richly layered with symbolic imagery which serves to conceal its meaning from the uninitiated. Fabrizio Pregadio presents a guide to deciphering this coded language in his The Seal of the Unity of Three: A Study and Translation of the Cantong Qi, the Source of the Taoist Way of the Golden Elixir published by Golden Elixir Press (2011). He intends the work to be useful for anyone with an interest in the study of the Golden Elixir. This includes both specialists in the field of Taoist studies and non-specialist readers. Pregadio's book consists of three major parts. The first part places the Can Tong Qi in its historical context, addresses issues of dating and authorship, and introduces concepts critical to understanding the coded language in the text. The second and most important part of the book renders a full translation of the classic text. The third part provides detailed commentary on the symbolic language and images used throughout the text. The book concludes with a few textual notes and series of useful tables and charts which summarize many of the key correspondences and symbols used in the text. In the first part of the book, Pregadio challenges some of the long held views about composition and authorship of the text. This section of the book will be of interest to scholars and historians; however, anyone interested in the practice of Internal Alchemy would do well to read it. Readers will find that familiarity with the historical context of the classics aids greatly in understanding the text itself. He also offers a glimpse of the painstaking detective work required to produce a high quality translation. The first section concludes with an overview of the major themes and images found in the text. This section will be of special interest to those who read the text from the perspective of Internal Alchemy. The complete book review can be found in the paperInterpreting the Ancient Codes available as a free download from TCCII.

Charles Luk (Lu Kuan Yu) has some well written and accessible works on Chan Buddhism. His Secrets of Chinese Meditation is a great place to start. He provides a systematic introduction to several of the major Buddhist schools in China, including their primary approaches to meditation. He also provides a translation of a short work on Taoist meditation at the end. Also, if you can find them for a reasonable price, his three volume series Chan and Zen Teaching is excellent. It is a shame it is out of print.

Hi TWIV. Thank you for the link to the site with more information about one of his teachers and his publications. It is a shame that very few of his books are still in print. As I mentioned previously, his scholarship was impressive. As a general note to those who are interested: I would strongly recommend his three part series on Chan and Zen teachings, if you can find it. Even if you are mostly interested in Taoism, there is still quite a bit to be learned about cultivating the Xing (Essential Nature) from Chan. Actually, given the overall quality of his work, I would not hesitate to pick up any of his books if I found them.

Hi GP, Thanks for your comments. I think we all agree that a teacher is required. It would also be better if we could show restraint in our criticism of the various schools of cultivation. This is especially true if we haven't actually studied their methods. Regardless of their strengths or weaknesses they exist because they helped someone at some point. The Buddhist say there are 84,000 expedient methods. Why? Because there are so many different types of people in the world. It is rare enough to meet actual practitioners in person, let alone online. Let's not follow the path of our martial relatives and end up with endless school/lineage wars.

Understood. I wrote that with the general audience in mind, not you specifically. I'd be interested in learning more about Lu's background if you have time or could point me to a source. His "Chan and Zen" series is quite well done. It is interesting to note that in the case of Chan, he thought people would be better off with his books than with a poor teacher. His series is so well written that I could almost agree.

Hi TWIV, I don't want to get in the way of your exchange with GP, but having actually studied Zhao's system from at least two teachers, here is some additional information for your consideration. Zhao Bi Chen (趙避塵, 赵避尘) is famous primarily because he is one of the first practitioners to write a comprehensive book (Xing Ming Fa Jue Ming Zhi, 性命法訣明指, 性命法诀明指) describing in detail the methods and practices of Internal Alchemy. He attempts to describe the practice in relatively plain language, so that your average person (with a teacher) could understand it. It is important to realize, however, that the book is still quite difficult as written words can only go so far to explain this very esoteric practice. Zhao's book was translated intoEnglish as "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy & Immortality" by Charles Luk (Lu Kuan Yu,陸寬昱, 陆宽昱),one of the last of a generation of British trained scholars fluent in both Eastern and Western cultures. It is the most complete, publicly available work on Internal Alchemy in the English language. This is not to say that it provides a complete description of Nei Dan (內丹) nor is it suitable as a practice guide without a teacher. In some regards, Zhao broke with the tradition of secrecy by writing the book. However, it is not believed that he expected someone to learn the practice from the book. Rather he intended the book to be a type of roadmap or check against which a student could measure what he learned from a teacher.Zhao was very much concerned about false teachers, having encountered more than a few, and wanted future students to have a "yardstick." Zhao's system was influenced by several sources. He is considered to have inherited the essence of the Longmen Pai Nei Dan (Bei Zhong, Northern School). He was also influenced by the Wu Liu Pai (itself a Buddhist/Taoist synthesis), Chan Buddhism, and the Nan Pai (Nan Zhong, Southern School). It is worthy of note that the Wu Lu Pai was only one source of Zhao's teachings with the Longmen Pai probably being the most influential source. In any case, Zhao's teachings are not, of course, fully described in his book.

Since you asked so nicely, how could I refuse! Following is partial list of our Chinese teachers. http://silenttao.com...chers-in-china/ They have all made important contributions in some way but in terms Taoism and Nei Dan, the following are most relevant to your question: Li Laoshi: Technically from the southern Zhong-Lu school, he was also a synthesizer and a scholar. His knowledge was encyclopedic. He answered a lot of questions and filled in a lot of holes. His teaching is the probably the most significant influence on our cultivation. He Laoshi: Longmen and Taijimen (a secretive Taoist sect,not to be confused with some modern groups that use that appellation). An iconoclast, despite being the abbot of a Taoist temple, he prided himself on never having worn Taoist robes. His use of Qigong for healing and foundation building was a strong influence on our teaching. He organized and explained the principles of using Qigong for healing very thoroughly and systematically. Chen Laoshi: Wudang Longmen (a branch of the Northern Quanzhen School) He taught a great number of classical Qigong forms, but we had greatest affinity with the Taiyi Qigong material. He taught a system of Nei Dan that most closely resembles Zhao Bi Chen's system.

Actually, I made no assumption about the level of experience of those reading this topic. The Foundation practices are where most everyone new to Nei Dan will start. Having prior experience with meditative and movement arts, as well as language skills are all very useful. If you are simply interested in learning about the general principles of this stage, you might take a look at Fabrizio's translation of Wang Mu. It provides a rather detailed discussion of the principles and terminology. Although the texts in question are from Nan Pai, other schools will use them as well.

L1, as XY noted, what we have been discussing is directly related to the actual practice. However, I understand that you are inquiring about the specific techniques of the Building the Foundation stage. I appreciate that you limited your question to that part of the practice. It is probably the stage of the practice that could most readily be described in writing, although it would take at least a small book to do it justice. To put it in perspective, we take three days to introduce the first stage in our Internal Alchemy course. This is only after preparing them with three days of basics and nearly a year of personal practice! However, it is also important to understand that there is no one answer to your question. That Westerners, as part of our general education and conditioning, expect a single answer to a question is one of the great cultural barriers that has to be crossed in order to understand these practices. You will likely find that each school has a slightly different approach and even within a school there would be variation among teachers and their students (see my reply to XY above.) If you are serious about wanting to study Nei Dan, but do not have a teacher, then the best advice I can give without knowing you would be to establish a diligent Qigong practice of some sort. By diligent I mean daily and committed. A committed daily practice is essential to success in cultivation. There is a saying "Those who start the (Internal Alchemy) practice are as numerous as the hairs on an ox. Those who finish are as rare as the dragon's horns and phoenix's feathers." That is, many people learn it, but few are committed enough to follow through with the practice. If you have a good practice, you will have a good foundation to learn Internal Alchemy when the time, place, and people are right.

This is a key point. One of the things that can quickly alienate a traditional Chinese teacher is a student showing up expecting them to prove that what they teach is true. For many of them, they are not there to "prove" anything, but to transmit. It is expected that the student has already decided that they accept, for example, that it is possible to become a TianXian, and simply wants to know how. Most of them do not, however, expect you to accept what they say on blind faith. They expect you to be committed and practice and thereby validate the method for yourself. There are levels of understanding which are based upon the students commitment/success in practice. Essentially, they expect you to practice and validate for yourself. In fact, the Taoist perspective is the opposite of the Western perspective: what is subject to change is not the doctrine, but the "practice". This is my understanding as well. The teachings/doctrine serve as a guide to inform your understanding and practice. Certain parts are rarely or never written down. If they are, key elements are usually omitted. The question that is often asked is "Why are there secrets?" The most basic answer is for all the reasons anyone keeps secrets. But one of main reasons is because the specific techniques and methods can be varied by the teacher to suit the unique needs of the individual students. The overall approach, however, will usually remain the same within the school. For this reason, it is hard to say "there is only one best method/technique/school". Not that it keeps people from saying that anyway...

Vortex, that is very good question. A full answer would be quite drawn out, but to summarize: The 8 year cycle (for males) is simply a heuristic. It varies greatly by the individual, but provides a relatively simple explanation for the process of growth, decline, and death and how it is reversed. Although I am not certain that it is fair, Zhao Bi Chen is sometimes criticized as having an overly physiological bias. The distinction between the virgin body and broken body implies more than just physiological processes. It can also refer to the overall constitution and nature. Therefore, sexual activity is not the only thing that can "break" the body, if you will. The 10 Excesses and the emotions (5 or 7 thieves) can do the same thing. These factors generally become aggravated in puberty, as anyone who knows teenagers will confirm! Second, remember that, although most of the alchemical texts were written from the male perspective, practically speaking it holds true for females as well, although the specific details will vary somewhat. What this means is in application is there are probably few people, especially Westerners, who would qualify as Tongzi. Almost everyone will need to start with building the foundation. An exception could be the case of a child who has an affinity with cultivation (especially if the child has a calm, untroubled spirit, without a lot of "pollution.") In this case, if you can get them started in the practice before they become sexually active, they could progress faster.

Nan Pai, Bei Pai, Yin Xian Pai... and parts of a few others.

And your efforts are certainly appreciated! I agree that there are too many fantasists, but this is true in all traditions, not just Taoism. It is also not simply limited to the West. There are plenty of Chinese fantasists as well. Although I have had Western teachers who have a better grasp of essential Chinese and Taoist practices than many Chinese teachers, I have also had a number of very highly accomplished Chinese teachers. Like anything else, Caveat Emptor. One important corollary: there is no need to limit yourself to a textual tradition. Neidan is a living tradition and there are authentic Chinese teachers (and a few Western ones) who are willing to teach Lao Wei! I don't know Your words are not wrong. However, in my understanding of how this applies to Alchemy, they are not "complete." In this case, Wu Wei does not mean nothing is done. It refers to a specific set of practices which are distinct from those of 'You Wei" You are correct regarding the formal, technical meaning of the term. My use of "Tongzi" is not made up, or Western fantasized. My Chinese teachers actually use this term. My understanding is that this meaning of Tongzi is an informal usage. However, since my Chinese language skill is limited, I would not object if you replaced my use of Tongzi with "body of childhood, when the precelestial particle of numinous radiance is not yet damaged." The key point to understand is that we were distinguishing between the youth with "unbroken Yang lines" and the adult with "broken Yang lines" Does that make sense?

The terms Superior Virtue (SV) and Inferior Virtue (IV) have. as do most other Alchemical terms, multi-variant meanings depending upon the context. Previously, we were talking about "Instant Realization " as it relates to Wu Wei and You Wei. SV and IV have a specific meaning here as it relates to Xian Gong and Dao Gong. When you take SV and IV in this context, we are talking about the Virgin Body (Tong Zi) in contrast to the broken body, as your sources point out. The key point is that in this context is that we are still using the terms to discuss the methods of Xian Gong. Wai Yao and Nei Yao are only two of the "Yao"s. There are others. Also, there can be some variation in the exact usage of terminology between schools. This point, combined with the fact that the entire process was never (to my knowledge at least) completely written down in detail makes it quite challenging to assemble a complete method from purely textual sources. Yes and no. There are clear indicators. That does not mean they cannot be missed in practice. I would say it differently. The whole of the Xian Gong practice is a preparation to the exit the practice and enter the practice of Dao Gong. What does "non-doing" mean to you?

This one has a double meaning referring to a certain stage in the practice. Also, it is related to the "Dao is obtainable in an instant" concept we are discussing over here. Yes. Also has a dual meaning in the Yin Yang Pai. This one is also related to question 9. Dual cultivation has a dual meaning in certain branches of the Southern School and the Yin Yang Pai. I am not certain that a good teacher can prevent them from arising. Instead, the very fact that hazards will arise is why it is so important to have a teacher. Great observation. One of the biggest obstacles most people face is looking for the ideal time to practice. There is no better time than now... There is also another meaning which relates to one of the specific techniques of the practice. I would add that some believe to cultivate in this world requires higher level of virtue (Te). Think about it practically, which is easier? To cultivate when everything is taken care of for you and you have nothing to do but practice. Or to cultivate when you have a wife, family, friends, job and bills to which you must attend? The latter are the "Hidden Dragons." Also a dual meaning in Yin Yang Pai. Also related to a specific technique in some schools.

The way you have stated it is somewhat problematic based on my understanding. I would not position "De" (Virtue) and "Yao" (Medicine) as directly related as you seem to imply in your statement... but I am not certain the details of the Yao should be discussed at this time. However, what we are discussing is the very heart of the Taoist cultivation "Dao" (Way). We spend a good portion of the time on this very topic in our three day introductory Alchemy course and only begin to scratch the surface. I don't know if I can do it justice here: As I indicated in my earlier post, and undoubtedly you are familiar with this, there are two major lines of Taoist cultivation. The two basic approaches in each of these lines differ. They are called Dao Gong (Cultivating Dao) and Xian Gong (Cultivating Immortality). The "source" of these two approaches is credited to Chapter Three in the Dao De Jing: "The Sage empties the heart and fills the belly." How do you you Cultivate Dao? Empty the Heart How do you Cultivate Immortality? Fill the Belly Which path should those who aspire to perfection choose? Those of Superior Virtue can go directly to the Dao. They simply empty the heart. What about those of Inferior Virtue? They have a method as well. They can fill the belly. So Superior Virtue and Inferior Virtue refer the aspirant's aptitude. Wu Wei and You Wei refer to the two the major methods (Fa) of cultivation. They are not, as is sometimes thought, related to the amount of "work" required of the cultivator. What does "Fill the Belly" mean? It refers to 1) Build the foundation 2) Transmute Jing to Qi and 3) Transmute Qi to Shen. The cultivation method here is "You Wei". It involves work, Gong. What does "Empty the Heart" mean? It refers to Realizing Tao. Because Tao is not something separate from you (if it were it would not be Tao!) all you have to do is realize it and you are done. When you do realize it, it happens instantly! But practically speaking, how do you empty the heart and thereby realize Tao? The masters will tell you it is as easy as dropping a heavy load. But really, who can just do it? Who can really empty their heart in, well, a heartbeat? That is why even those of Superior Virtue have a cultivation method: "Wu Wei" One of the common misconceptions is that "Do nothing" does not involve work. Unfortunately it does.

Would they really find that concept offensive? I agree with you, the "Taoism is a Religion" group does great work. The fact that some of them consider it a religion in its "numinous" aspects somewhat moderates their otherwise tiresome use of "Daoistic, and proto-Daoist" And, of course, religious Taoism is another "path to the mountain top."

Indeed, ritual is itself one of the subsets of "immortality"cultivation. One of the many "vehicles" to borrow a Buddhist term. Are you referring to the "Taoism is (first and foremost) a religion" group?

Actually, I agree with you that the DDJ is not a Nei Dan text in the strict sense. This is because I accept the more technical definition of Nei Dan that academics use - and yes, this field could use more of them, especially if they are also practitioners. It is however possible to view it as an internal cultivation text which describe methods that ultimately produce the same effect as Nei Dan, that is "uniting with the Tao" "perfection" or "immortality". IN this case, the text does indeed stand alone. Although your selected quote would not support this point, many of the other chapters would. For example, Chapters 2, 3, 5 and 6 are thought to provide fairly specific advice on how to cultivate. Some practitioners consider that Chapter 3 "...The sage empties the heart and fills the belly..." is the basis for the two major lines of Taoist internal cultivation. This, of course, does not preclude the text from being read as applying to all other activities in this world -- "As above, so below." If anything, its application to other areas strengthens its value as a guide to inner cultivation. That is because ordering your life's affairs is one of the major prerequisites for an aspiring practitioner to begin their training. The point is not to create an argument, but as foundation for this question: Is there an umbrella concept within academia to look at Taoist cultivation aimed at "uniting with the Tao" in general but recognizing various subsets of this cultivation? Said subsets may consist of methods characterized by historically specific identifiers e.g. Nei Dan.

It seems there are two interesting points here worth continuing to discuss. 1) Differences in perspective between Internal Alchemy practitioners and Western trained specialists the field of Taoist studies (academics) regardingwhat is "Nei Dan." The term "academics" is not intended to be pejorative. The nature of Western academic training demands that its specialists be as precise and clear as possible. For them, the term "Nei Dan"applies to practices related to a specific historical period, as outlined inone of Fabrizio's earlier posts. Practitioners are taught that Nei Dan has its origins in themists of Taoist history – dating back to Huang Di and Lao Zi (Huang-Lao). They will tend to refer to texts such as the Dao De Jing, Zhuang Zi and Nei Yeh as early"Internal Alchemy" texts. Why is that? It is because they believe those texts are describing the same thing as the Nei Dan texts, using different language. In other words, to them "A rose by any other name is still a rose." Is there a way to harmonize these seemingly opposing viewpoints? 2) The difference between perspectives of 1) perfection happens in "one instant" and 2) it takes "100 days, 10 months, 9 years" to go through the various stages. This reminds me of the instant vs. gradual debate in Buddhism, although I have rarely heard Taoist practitioners arguing about it. Many of the Taoist practitioners I have met accept that the moment of realization is "instant" but it takes a lot of hard work "Kung Fu" to get there. The above quoted numbers are merely a heuristic - that is a general guideline which can vary greatly from person to person depending uponwhere they start and their own aptitude and dedication to the training. The varied practices expounded by the different schools of Nei Dan may also result in somewhat different models of progression in their training.