dawg

They way I've always understood it was that classical Buddhism views even the heavenly planes and hellish planes (as well as our waking reality) as other forms of samsara/illusory realities and that the goal was to transcend these in favor of absolute reality/nirvana. That in of itself makes Buddhism seem to me like a very high level spiritual path as compared to other more theistic practices. It chooses not to acknowledge any kind of God and declares that we are responsible for our own actions and their results; in other words no Freudian "Big Daddy Complex" were we beg God for mercy or forgiveness, or place our baggage on His shoulders, only that we acknowledge ourselves as being in oneness/Buddhahood.

I only seem confused by the Buddhist concept of Nirvana...is it annihilation of ourselves, the epitome of advancement or is it another completely different reality with its own rules (nonduality for instance?) and "levels" where spiritual advancement continues onward?

Hello Observer,

Thanks for your comment.

As I understand nirvana (enlightenment):

When you reach enlightenment you have achieved total unity (non duality), you no longer create any new karma, but while your physical body is still alive you are still subjected to your old karma, then when your body dies your old karma dies with your body... But you will never die again, and need to be reborn again... You are an "indestructible unity"... totally complete, needing nothing and wanting nothing... Total "emptiness"... But not emptiness in the sense of nothingness... Your awareness is emptiness in the sense of infinite potential... your awareness is an empty stage that you can fill with anything of your choice, or leave empty.

Buddhism recognizes that the gods (plural) exist, and one of the heavenly realms is a "god & goddess realm"... But all beings in the spirit realms including the gods (but not those in the Buddha realm), were born in that realm and must die and be reincarnated again in whatever realm that their karma sends them to... The gods are not immortal, nor all powerful... They are just beings who probably started out as humans, and worked their way up to the god realm. They have a lot of power, and a very long life span, but in the end they are mortal and subject to the same natural (spiritual) laws of the universe as us.

The moon the Buddha's finger points to is not really the spirit world. That's a mistake. The fingers points to Nirvana, or a non-dual reality beyond both the spirit world and the physical world. In this case reality is also a special kind of view. In spiritual systems of thought realities and views are not two distinct things. In non-spiritual systems of thought reality is often separate and distinct from views.

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Hello Goldisheavy,

Thanks for your comment...

I almost didn't put the Buddha quote in the paper (I took it out, then put it back in). But within the context of the paper (Spirit World & Physical World), I decided to use it to convey the idea that a religion (the finger pointing) was only a road map or set of instructions (part of the physical world, and not the main event)... That reaching the highest level of attainment (that you are capable of) in spirit world (the moon)was the main event...

I have listened to a lot of Dharma talks and discussions at the monastery where I have been meditating, and it is my understanding that a person who reaches nirvana goes to the Buddha Realm which is the highest realm in the spirit world... and people who are "on the path" to nirvana (who will have no more than 8 reincarnations before they reach nirvana), are reincarnated no lower than the human realm, but usually in a heavenly realm... you may reach nirvana while still alive (like the Buddha), but nirvana is not really a condition of the physical world, that you are already in the Buddha realm at the top of the spirit world even though you still have a body... To me the Buddha's finger pointing at the moon, is the Buddha pointing out the spiritual path (road map) you have to follow to reach nirvana, which is the highest realm in the spirit world... And to get there you have to be aware of the spirit world first, and then understand that the spirit world is more important than the physical world...

Metta,

Dawg

(A suggestion: please consider removing the quotes key from your keyboard - it becomes pretty distracting).

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Hello Manitou,

Thanks for the welcome... And regarding all the quotes, I plead guilty as charged... I used to use upper case type, but I kicked that habit by switching to quotes... I thought it was a little less offensive... I can't remove the quote key because I need the other symbol on the key... but I will try to restrain my finger every time it starts reaching for the "quote" key.

Metta,

Dawg

Hi Dawg, Welcome to the 'bums.

 

I'll move this post into the forum to see if we can get some discussion going for you.

 

Have fun (and good luck with your net connection)

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Hello Mal,

Thanks for the welcome, and for moving this post into the forum.

Metta,

Dawg

Hello !

I feel like I already “know” many people here, because I have been reading the threads for months. But I have just registered as a member, and have spent a couple of days looking at everything trying to figure out how things work.

I am an American and I am currently living half way up a mountain in the north of Thailand, just south of the Mekong River… I just spent a year meditating at a Buddhist monastery in the forest east of me. At the moment I am meditating alone in solitude. But I will return to the monastery when my dharma teacher returns from Europe and Australia.

The internet connection of the computer I use to get on-line, is “flakey”. It is a satellite dish aimed at a satellite owned by a government monopoly. The service is over subscribed, so it is sometimes impossible to get on-line, or I am suddenly bumped off-line. If that is not bad enough, it will crap out if there are too many clouds, or if it is raining… and it is presently the “rainy season”… But thanks to my meditation, nothing really bothers me anymore… I just tell myself that its’ my karma, and go and do something else… As a result, my presence in the discussion forums might be very irregular.

I registered as a member, because I wanted to start a discussion forum with the topic title… “Eye witness accounts of the spirit world”… I have been to the spirit world more times than I could count (I once spent more than three weeks when I could see and roam off into the spirit world every time I closed my eyes, no matter where I was or what I was doing)… I shall describe realms and spirit beings that I have seen and interacted with (also any conclusions), and would like to hear other people describe their “eye witness” accounts of realms and spirit beings that they have seen and interacted with (and any conclusions) in the spirit world…

Spirit World & Physical World

The "Spirit World" and "Religion" are two completely different things. The "Spirit World" is what "is", "Religion" is what we "imagine" the spirit world to be. The "Physical World" and "Science" are two completely different things. The "Physical World" is what "is", "Science" is what we "imagine" the physical world to be ... The Spirit World and the Physical World are unassailable Cosmic Realities... Religion and Science were created by men, so are riddled with flaws and mistakes...

Our spirit lives eternally in the "Spirit World", and we are born with a physical body into the "Physical World". When our spirit leaves our body in the "Physical World", we are still alive in the "Spirit World". We never die… it is impossible to “die”. When we are physically alive, we are living in both worlds simultaneously. Our spirit inhabits and controls our physical body, which is what makes our physical body "alive". When we are awake, the physical world of physical senses (sight, sound, smell, taste, touch) totally engages our spirit, so that we are unaware of the spirit world, but when we sleep we return to the spirit world. That is why we need sleep, and why it refreshes our body. When we are asleep and dream, our dreams take place in the spirit world. If when we are asleep and dreaming, and we are aware that we are dreaming, we can take control of our dream (by simply walking away from whatever is happening in our dream), and use our awareness that we are in a dream to explore the spirit world... This is what is called "Lucid Dreaming". This is the "Dream-time" of ancient cultures like the Australian aborigines, and of the native American tribes, that knew the spirit world as a normal conscious part of their everyday lives. (Note: a person can meditate and sit in “Samadhi” for days without “sleeping”, because “Samadhi” is essentially a form of “lucid sleep”).

Our religious beliefs, or affiliations, are totally unimportant in the spirit world... It doesn't matter whether we are a Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Taoist, Agnostic, Atheist, etc, etc, etc... There is nothing contradictory in being an atheist, yet believing in an afterlife in a "spirit world". Believing or not believing in a God or Gods, in no way determines our fate in an afterlife in a spirit world. We will go to a heavenly realm if our "thoughts", "words", and "actions" were motivated by "good intentions"; or go to a hell realm if we had "bad intentions". No one "judges" us except ourselves. In the spirit world, our thoughts are “actions” and create realities. Our own mind knows everything that we have done in our life, so that our own thoughts send us to whatever spiritual realm that is full of people like ourselves (we end up there for the same reasons that other people ended up there). This is why religion says that it is important to, "Do unto others as we would have them do unto us"... Because the other people in that spirit realm that we go to, will do to us what we have done to others while we were alive... "We will reap what we have sown"... Our "actions", "words", and "thoughts" in the physical world, create realities for us in the spirit world that effect our "mind", "body", and "spirit" (and so our dreams) even while we are still physically alive. Then when our physical body dies and drops away from our eternal spirit body, and we find our consciousness back in the spirit world, we will then have to live with these realities that we have created while our body was alive...

The physical world and spirit world are places of simple "cause & effect"... The "intention" of our thoughts, words, and actions in the physical world are the cause, and the realities that they create will first determine what happens to us in the physical world... Then when our body dies, the spiritual realities that our intentions have created while alive in the physical world, will determine what happens to us in the spirit world. No religion can "save" us from the intentions of our thoughts, words, and actions... They determine our fate in both worlds... Only by having "good" thoughts, words, & actions can we "save" ourselves, because our intentions create our reality (fate) in both worlds... We "are" the "intention" of our thoughts, words, and actions.

The Spirit World or Universe is a Cosmic Reality, beyond the understanding of man... Religion is a simple childlike description of the spirit world, invented by man... The various Religions are based on the individual experiences of different highly spiritual men (prophets), who tried to describe and explain the Spirit World or Universe, as they saw it, with words... words that were later interpreted by other men who had never seen the spirit world, or talked to spirit beings. But there are no words that are really capable of describing the actual experience of the spirit world. If a person has not experienced the spiritual world for them self, all the words for describing it have no meaning and are empty... It is like trying to describe to a blind person, what it is like to see with your eyes, and to watch a beautiful sunset... It is like trying to explain to a deaf person, what it is like to hear, and to listen to beautiful music...

No religion "owns" the "Spirit World or Universe", any more than any country "owns" the "Physical World or Universe"... The Spirit Universe, and the Physical Universe just "are", and "have been" in existence eons before man and religion appeared... Religion and Science are just man's limited attempts to describe the cosmic reality of the Spirit Universe and Physical Universe.

"My teaching (Religion) is like a finger pointing to the moon (Spirit World)... Do not mistake the finger for the moon”... Buddha

Everyone is familiar with the "Physical World", because it is the world of senses (sight, sound, smell, taste, touch), the world that our physical body lives in. This is the world that "Science" studies. This is the world that science "observes" and tries to "describe" in logical terms. It is because "Science" is so focused on the Physical World of our senses, that Science is so blind to the Spirit World. The Spirit World is too ephemeral and intangible for science to "measure", "weigh", or do any of the things it does with the Physical World. "Scientists" are usually so focused on the world of the senses, that they have no awareness of the Spirit World, and because they are unable to experience it, they dismiss it as non existent. And because no one can give them tangible (physical) "proof" that a Spirit World exists, they then think that the Spirit World, and Religion by association, are just a lot of nonsense. But for scientists to demand "physical evidence" for the existence of the spirit world, is as clueless as asking scientists to provide "spiritual evidence" that their science is real. Both the Spirit World and the Physical World have "natural laws" that explain how they work, both are based on simple "cause and effect", but they are totally different...