Rocky Lionmouth

@Mudfoot

2 cents to add: some teachers capitalize on that dynamic, that is a red flag for sect-leader behavior. Some teachers truly believe this is correct and traditional, promoting the stereotype and likely were either played by a sectleader or had a teacher whom they didn’t understand. If a teacher insists for their students to be part of some inner circle or sucking up with loose promises of a place at the table then this is a red flag for insecurity and it’s not conductive to a very healthy relationship. If you’ve seen ”Kill Bill vol. 2” that summarizes a good vs poor teacher-student relationship: Sure, many teachers can seem a little stiff at first but the dynamic is ideally a respectful and reciprocal friendship, imo a good teacher will open up to a student who can grasp and pay attention, or at least shows dedication and effort to approach their treasures... Chinese teachers drop a lot of hints and gems around them but they often do it so casually and discretely that not everybody notices what just flashed before them. It’s definetly a chance or luck thing, finding a skilled person whom you can understand and who is able to recognize your attention and diligence.

Interesting thoughts! I’ma ramble a few cents then, hopefully adding something... Faith, imxp, is to daoist practice as @Gerard wrote more or less. Believing is something one can choose and i consider faith and belief to be pretty much interchangeable as concepts. Faith/belief in a god, i can speak personally to that: A few years ago i chose to believe in Guan Gong and i know that we have mutual faith in eachother. I had to practice how to speak and how to perform offerings as a means of acting from my heart when we interact, but the techniques are not the way. I was offered a chance to develop a relationship of trust and aid with a spiritually powerful something and it was like getting to know somebody new. Like meeting a new Sifu. My Sifu introduced us by showing me how to behave and interact from his own knowledge and experience, but he merely opened a door for me to have interaction with Guan Gong. Because he felt my heart could be honest in this, i think. Or that it would help me further solidifying honesty, compassion and respect, have help at hand from a very reliable source. It was an act of kindness and a way for us to further share and build things together. I think mindfullness is a good way to meditate daily in practice and life to discern and cultivate ones Zi-Ran and bridging the gap between our yin ,atter and yang energy. But mindfullness is merely a technique to be able to develop sight and sensitivity for how to manifest and align oneself properly to increase the chance of success in ones actions. Dao is there and does their thing, we can choose different approaches and techniques to achieve what we want, really anything goes but some ways are far better and reap far larger benefit in a greater context. Some of those ways are very in tune with the Dao i think, some are not. Sometimes acting childishly selfish and behaving like an asshole is the exact way to follow the flow in a most auspicious way, sometimes it’s just detrimental and destructive. In the end there is no real external morality or faith, it’s just us and everything else here. Faith and belief is in a way fundamental, but where to place it? What to believe? So, as i think i keep saying far too often to be of any use, in a way both faith and belief are inconsequential without specifics. Returning to my example with worshipping Guan Gong: he exists already, it wont even matter if i believe in him or not, my faith will not confirm nor nullify his existance, whatever plane he might be on. Wether i choose to believe we can have interaction and be kind and generous to eachother is more the matter, and even then after any initial discomfort in accepting that by doing things a certain way with full honesty that is in fact what is happening, belief stops being a matter. We interact and that is a fact. If somebody were to describe that as a man talking to and offering treats to an ornate statue they would not be wrong, thats what it can look like. Describe it as a man who stupidly believes in some made up bearded fellow who has all sorts of mystical powers, carries a big fuckoff-halberd and is the protector of the weirdest most disparate things they are most likely disparaging something for their own sake and projecting it onto what they see but they are possibly not wrong at all. My faith in this matters not, i speak and offer to Guan Gong and there is an interaction between us, wether he be nothing, just a statue or a heavenly immortal of immense power and humbly righteous compassion. Now im approaching murky waters: Description of stuff make them so, in a way. Correct or not, if they are like that then thats it. There is no benefit in limiting either knowledge or truth in this of course, why set more hurdles and obstacles where they are not needed? We are but people. Supported by earth who is nurtured from the sky. None of the three are good or evil. Sometimes terrible things happen, sometimes people do terrible things to eachother, it is ugly when this happens by design and intention. But if an earthquake kills 1000 people in an instant, is it a malicious act with murderius intent? Hardly. Being like the earth is just like that. It is possible to have accidents and inflict terrible damage without meaning to, but if it happens and there is no good or evil in it, whats left? If buddahood is indeed something to strive for, are karma and rebirth not part of buddahood even if they are eliminated? Becoming a bodhisattva, returning or staying for the supposed liberation of everything, isn’t that noble and terribly pretentious, perhaps even damaging to the goal of liberating of all things? What if Guan Yins endless mercy and compassion increases suffering for all those who are not blessed with feeling it? Sure, pointless observations, who am i to question the Ladys wisdom or methods? But again, with mere concepts i have described a possible catastrophic error, however unlikely. The Dao is whatever it is, encompassing all and leaving nothing undone or affected. Faith is a tool on the way, sometimes its good, sometimes it sucks. Use it wisely. I’m out, Peace

Thank you!! I think it is! Yeah the marvel is real on that point, but seeing as daoist symbolism and organization of thought usually is it ought to not be a coincidence

Hi! This has been churning and cycling around my noggin for a while and i'm even ashamed to ask because it's either a huge secret or so obvious i've missed it. I'm also guessing there is a formal way, an intuitive way and a few more or less hidden/esoteric or oral transmissions in the manner of the proverbial onion So, for a dummy like me, how would you describe the basics of the trigrams? How do their lo-mid-hi position relate, examples are more than welcome! Woud you say there is a hearchical order or does the hi-mid-lo place ent consist of a descriptive model say for instance: Bottom line is the basic premise of something, middle is the agent, top is the result. Or is more an interchange or dynamic where seen from above the outer two are the agents involved and the inner on is the result of their dynamic? I understand that maybe there's an original or classic way to read them and perhaps these have lead to adaptation, borrowing and metaphor. Can you help a brother out? I'm sure there are more bums thst me who'd like to get funky on this subject. (Btw, sorry if i planted this in the litterary garden, it felt appropriate since I-King is the source right, but maybe i misstook, sorry bout that in this case )

We’re in the same boat then.

Like thelerner said a while ago: i wish taomeow was here. Been saying that to myself a lot lately but yeah. WWTMD? Right? I remember reading something like the trigram called Lake and that it was associated in a familial role as that of the third (meaning youngest) daughter. There is yin over two yangs, someone (probably on here, but who?) mentioned its lakey-ness could be attributed to water being kept afloat and supported by the double yang strenght of the soil and bedrock and that it was similar to the youngest female member of a family because she’d have a yin appearance/demeanor but with so many siblings and a strong family to support her in life her root and inner truth would be strong and creative. I’m most likely paraphrasing if not misquoting the Bum who wrote it but i cant find the thread so i’ll assume responsibility for unintended spreading of hogwash. But i think your point is highly relevant @wandelaar , how is it that three lines of yin/yang intermingling become Lakes, Youngest Daughters and Joyous Openness for example. It is confusing. Since i started the thread i’ve been thinking of this aspect/approach: The trigram as a human being - three dan ti in a given configuration. Keeping with Lake an interpretation could be that this person has a positive fill in lower dan ti and middle dan ti while their upper dan ti is receptive, meaning their mental/mind/spirit level is receptive and supported with a strong positive base of physical/structural health and a externally creative emotional/energetical life. plus i’m trying to figure out wether they should be read from top to bottom or vice versa. Edit: regarding the above last paragraph i’m considering a sequential direction in relation to the trigram possibly representing a human being, since body is built from bottom up (resting upon earth going to heaven) and a persons energy comes from heaven and moves to earth, at least that is how i’ve been taught. Considering this as a hexagram i take it the main context needs to be read as TM suggested earlier, as in fire under water is water boiling, besides deeper analysis with the two middle trigrams. Just a note for well, idk, having said it i guess.

First paragraph is the best selling point i can see. If it doesn’t stimulate a potential student then this student has a need to be convinced and feel a pretty immediate gratification. Perhaps Xing Yi could open their gates. Second paragraph is a little difficult, because a lot of tai ji people claim that but their skill is often either far too mentalized or underdeveloped vis a vis actually feeling and prepping what might ail someone. I was reading through and i’d be sold on tai ji on whats been said, but thats choir-preaching tbh, i’m too easily swayed on the matter But ah @dwai really hit it home, here go my supporting sales pitch: there is a ton of stuff to discover and develop within our bodies (including mind, because lets just let Descartes be in his grave poor sod) and it’s a great set of tools to learn. If they are word-eaters: Proprioception, control and relaxation of core musculature, learning to go easy on the main injury points of both blue collar and white collar carrers. However a good sales pitch needs an honest real-talk aspect: Like planking and push ups it’s not for everyone and you will be frustrated and perhaps disillusioned after a while, maybe you’ll never grow to really passionately like it, but it will give you benefits and you will discover many things. It’s not going to be like saying and doing a few magic things, it might even lead you to and help you deal with depression and challenging times! Just make sure you understand it as a life-skill building framework, there is a lot to gain if you are prepared to invest blood sweat and tears into it. Edit i forgot whats sold more than a few people i’ve met who were on the fence: it’s a good way to put savings into your ”retirement fund” as in, do it right and your body will most likely not be as stiff, uncooperative and decrepit in your late years.

Rara, i’m always happy when we write eachother. Good for you, that is a hard and brave decision to make and i fully respect the approach, i’ve had people blow a couple of fuses when i’ve mentioned similar thoughts. I hope you find a job that allows you to be closer to your nature. Having time and mental space to invest is the prime fuel of cultivation, i’d offer you a job if i had one atm. I hate retired people who have it set up like that. They make this big show of ”uff, i’m so tired and poor me i have huge amounts of time and a stipend to live off” and they are having a blast like all day.

This is what i have heard also, from a source i trust deeply. In his perspective the only people who’d really have a chance to be able to study, develop and transmit qi gong, nei gong etc would be people who had time on their hands, ate well, slept well and werent affected too negatively by illness or injury. ”How can you take care of energy development if you’re spending more energy than gained since you cannot afford to take care of your body?” was his reasoning. That’s of course a matter of geography, economy, skill and knowledge. I think this derivable from having enough resources and a mind honed or talented enough to cultivate. I think Daoism is for those who are well off in terms of cultural capital first and foremost, and lucky enough to have met someone willing to teach them. A rich life can mean many things, so a rich person might no be wealthy but they have life skills and mindset to create a mounting momentum with the resources at hand.

That is part of it yes, i think another meaning is that true virtue springs not from any virtuous action or person and that the highest of virtues are manifested when you follow the Dao and your nature fully without ever considering or wanting any virtue at all.

How about: I suggest you read the story of when the Prophet Moses was badgering Al Khidr who was up to his usual shenanigans. Now Al Khidr wasn’t wu wei-ing it fully but he did what he could when he could and recognized to leave well alone the rest of the time. Sure confused the heck out of Moses who was, supposedly, pretty sharp in his intuition and knowledge. What he often lacked in comparison to Al Khidr was that he was so intent observing the manifestations that the mystery just went past him completely. Funny thing is Khidrs insight wasn’t even all that miraculous as the hadith would have him (a near sorcerous or immortal figure gifted with divine powers of clairvoyance and farsight), he just knew what was what and could read the signs around him. Those that retell his stories are too focused on him being a Holy Man and Close Servant of The Greatest, but he was just hip and figured certain aspects of flow out. He was honest in his dedication to be of service to Allah and his merit was generosity and frugality, he knew even gifted and erudite folks would call him batshit crazy, but his Way had more virtue in that he was concerned with what to do about this or that in a way that was immediate and had long term import of value to others. Sort of. Wether he was humble or not is hard to say but he wasn’t easily impressed nor too conceited to call someone out on their mistakes. Makes me think of Chuang or Lao immediately. Sadly he left nothing behind him except for rumors and hearsay but his encounter with Moses is pretty inspiring from a Daoist perspective. Uh, i’ll be done pestering you now, thank you for your patience 2 cents, outtie 5k.

*waves from the other side of the street, mouths ”WELCOME TO THE CLUB!” and toasts your good health*

@wandelaar i get the feeling you’re not liking the nitpickety of words and i can definetly relate. I quite enjoyed your list and found it loose enough to pass my rule-allergy. However, since we’re talking both Chuang and Lao dont confuse hard stands of semantics with spinning off eachothers formulations, it’s pretty common in daoist conversation to use both humorism and play of nuance to approximate something that is both undescribable and also very hard to estimate roughly. As a general principle for me i’d say what Rara and Luke were on about was a pretty deep truth regarding Dao and it’s isms: context and participants are crucial and key pivotal points in everything. Look at chinese martial arts that have Dao Lu, or forms/kata, those are illustrations of principles, conversational parleurs, conditioning, typefonts of writing with bodies, geometrical cross-sections and exercise all woven into one. The tricky part is extracting only one aspect of them and foregoing the others or trying to be too general where specifics are concerned. Stuff is intermingled on very minute levels and shifting kinetic lines, spin and resultant force vectors by a few millimeters or degrees affect the overall interaction dramatically. I think some of those voicing variations or resistance to your organizational initiative are really stoked about the work you do and really want to add and discuss it and further it. Personally i haven’t seen any fingers pointed, but bums are often direct in their approach, except when they get all old-sagey and talk riddles like newspapers give headlines if you know what im saying? Have faith, you’re in good company, i promise.

Oh man, you would have caught such sore lumps on that marble of yours 😂

Might one speculate of the monetary worth of such a fortune?

Nope but i intend to now, thanks for the tip! While perhaps not a story in itself there is a book by one Michael Saso called ”Taoist Master Chuang” that recounts the impressions and memories of the author and pretty detailed descriptions of his formal induction and training as a Taoist priest. The titular person is a master priest who is known far and wide in Vietnam for his superb skills and deep knowledge and mastery of many rituals and the correct way to perform them. His two sons and the author undergo their education as priests and masters of ritual and a lot of curious encounters and unexpected tidbits are retold. Chuang is also a pretty grumpy fella who leans heavily on his liver with alcoholism, the effects of which he stays and remedies through various forms of internal alchemy practices. As far as i can tell the details are legit though not exhaustive (some things are, afterall, too secret to tell) and it is a popularized piece of contemporary history that grew out of the authors interest in so called Real Daoist practices, that important and esoteric stuff everybody is so excited about, and how it was taught in this instance only a few decades ago. Saso went as an academic but soon realized he needed to show his commitment by becoming an official and accepted disciple of Chuang so he went native I reserve the right to be unintentionally full of shit regarding details in my pitch of this book but it was a while ago i read it last and details get fuzzy.

Compassion, frugality and humility, Lao Tzus three greates treasures. The other day a beggar asked for money of which i had none on me, but i had two choccolate bars of which i gave him one, he compassionately told me we’d at least have eaten half a meal each so i didnt need to worry about full hunger. He asked me to buy cigarettes as a gift, i said i couldn’t but offered him my snus (like snuff or dip, it’s the traditional swedish thing) which he didn’t want because he liked to smoke tobacco and if no cigarettes were available he’d make due without. Frugality indeed. Then he gave me a small pin with the band Korn’s logo on it which i tried to decline because i had no gifts of my own to offer. He insisted so i took it and felt humbled he found a present for me and i had nothing to reciprocate. I’m not saying he was no saint or sage but the guy was pretty taoist in his approach, i’ll give him that!

*grabs the mic, hesitates on a start but takes the plunge* Next on after Lao Zoeng Marble-head brung the truth with no stress: from down south enter Lionmouth preach and press display true grit when i bless numinous energy held inside nonetheless @9th runnup in the place quote for days, displace with graces observe the wording of parables stated contextualize it nice, get the picture right? bumpin on some predominantly hood shit for description and a giggles bit but what about rappers who got it made and shit Daoists who got paid and shit explain the rhymin dao zhang slang canon fo me is you selling scrolls or prosellatyzin homey? Do the knowledge sonny Is you dissin stacks or is you blazing ghost money? My ass decline the line where cash is honey wether you mountaineer, temple dwell Or scruffy ruffin in a roach motel ya living in the jungles, planetary skills is ill read the world like from trigammatic change and spill harmonize, tonalize and immortalize Wherever bums may roam salute the dome and circular observe beizer curving perpendicular Right to left like the ventricular increase the aligned flow fo sho increase the peace walk like true mankind and understand the beast 5000 Rocky out, peace! *wants to mic-drop but then remembers he might be liable for service costs to the equipment so he places the mic back on the booth carefully*

Why follow Tao? Why not?

Cheers, thanks for that and putting up with my shenanigans

@Nungali you beautiful beast, you had me at the sunglasses smiley and showed me the scenic route, exactly as i suspected.

But then you havent considered the wider implications of making a deuce on the toilet, thereby flushing those precious and innocent seeds away with their chance of being disseminated. Or perhaps you go in the woods and thereby voided my playful comeback? I’m a vegetarian since 18 years now, but i stopped being strict with it a few years back. Not because i feel bad for animals (i do!), but because i hate veggies and want to hurt them with my teeth.

Aw crap, you have no idea how often i hear that lately :/ My quoting your text is because you adress the core of your questions (as i understand them) very plainly, which is a good point to start from. Then i suggested a Small Dao or Way to approach it and enumerated a few examples based on your plain description of the conundrum at hand. I seeded a few references to DDJ and was trying to employ humor to lighten and deepen my examples. If something is narrow and it is a problem, try wide or even more narrow instead. Bow you percieve and describe something matters, everything has an ”opposite”, maybe it can shed light? How can you see from multiple perspectives if you only have one body and at least one functioning eye? (Sounds like magics to me, please teach me?) Perspectives are a dime a dozen, you need to find what you want to do and then research approaches to achieve that goal, preferrably not spending too much energy or messing about unnecessarily. Pick a spot and start, look at its descriptive counterpart and evaluate both, then start over. Life’s only problem is that living creatures are born, get sick and die. A problem, being such a thing that hinders moving on as you were, with life means the flow is hindered and perhaps stopped. If movement stops, life ends. Observe the onstacle and its context, compare it to previous experiences that seem analogous and see if you can find a common denominator. For instance: a large rock is obstructi g your path. Water flows downhill and around stuff, can you emulate water to get around that large rock? If not, try fire, wood, metal or earth. Never stop, keep going, try everything and take note of what works. What came after that was just a lot of bla bla bla. The PS was my trying to poke holes in your idea of the Implications of Being a Philosophical Taoist. It doesnt matter if you are one or not, you’re still going to be you at that exact spot and time you are. What to do? Any clearer? I hope so or i need to go see someone to teach me how to communicate and express myself more clearly.