Rocky Lionmouth

Well, there you go, a few very clear and specific issues you see. I’ll give you a Small Way to follow, just to try: observe how you problematize something with adjectives and look for the corresponding pairing that would balance your path towards a more productive direction. Examples: Are your thoughts narrow? Balance that by ”widening” the thinking and input patterns. If you tell me they are narrow, then i advise increasing width and depth. Are you able to see from multiple perspectives? Where are you standing to get that kind of view?! (Plz tell me?) Is it helpful? Try observing just one of them that seems to best suit your idea of interaction and preferentially requires the least energy and meddling for all involved parts. Observe one of the diametrally different perspectives, evaluate and compare merits, what changes the balance, how does the energy and meddling look from that side? Most importantly: why are you looking at multiple perspectives? Do you like any of them or are they messing with your clarity of purpose? Why are solutions to problems not just appearing naturally ? Let me suggest that promlems are conditions that hinder a certain outcome or smoothness. Dont get caught staring att just the existance of the obstacle, it has both surroundings and properties that might be useful or expose a way around or through it. Beware complications and oversimplifying. None of the above is going to sound the least bit extraordinary or naturally arising from nothing, perhaps i might sound condescending writing this but i certainly mean every word exactly as i wrote it, literally, more or less at least Thats because the 10k things werent born out of no-thing directly, there are processes and phases to account for. Daoism is very pragmatic and the philosophical side is not so very interested in abstractions for the sake of general principles, at least imo. The DDJ was written as advice to a king or leader of the people, it relies on the principles of the Dao to provide this advice, but i have a hard time seeing it as vague allegories that adress anyone. Chuang tse is trickier, he hides the Dao but he speaks on many many different things to different audiences. Sad thing is it’s sometimes hard to see who was the recieving the message and in what context. Enough of my rambling now, i’m no expert at all. Btw, there’s this forum populated by a stumbling crowd of rowdy bums trying to figure stuff out, i think you’d like it Also: good thread! PS just to mess with ya: does Being a philosophical Taoist really imply anything? Why is it different from being a scientific Taoist or a philosophical scientist? What are you implying about me good sir?!

Interesting to see the Pillars, i hadn’t thought about them with the ToL superimposed like that. It is interesting speaking of thrusting channels and taiji pillars when the middle one is broken off in that image. I’m a stark opponent to cartesian dualism as a truthful observation of the human condition since i believe that cartesian bisection is related to the fact that that middle pillar is broken, does it really have to be? Idk, i’m just riffing a little here. Being a cantankerous nitpicker with words (where is Chi Dragon when you need him?!) is a passion of mine but i’m not very sharp so bear with me OP: I think Daoist ideas reflect little on left-right polarity, but i’m sure that the relationship between left-medium-right and how they balance each other is pivotal. East and West are not the same. Ambidexterity isn’t necessarily being able to do the exact same things with either side of your body, it is having dexterity enough to harmonize with everything as appropriately as possible. Perhaps. Spontaneous comments on the discussion so fark: isn’t the ”belt meridian”, one of the 8 extraordinary ones, that encircles the body at waist-ish level described as having a rotational direction also? I remember reading somewhere on here that the belt is the only overtly illustrated latitudinal pattern, which shouldn’t leave us thinking that it is the only one period. I’ve parttaken of teachings that have a lateral motion as well, both in the vertical (Head is Wood, Left Arm is Fire, Left Leg is Earth, Right Leg is Gold, Right Arm is Water) and qi gong exercises that follow this circumference pattern, but i fear to speak directly of it because my training and understanding of them is undeveloped as of yet. Left-right is important in Daoism i think. I know that on a physical level, say speaking of sung and studying base techniques bilaterally to achieve a symmetry in execution is important, at least in kung fu and tai gik training, from a Southern perspective at least. Basic forms usually have a balance in execution while more ”advanced” ones forgo bilateral repetitions because you’re expected to solve that and such forms are either intermingled with qi gong stuff or have a particular specialization woven into them for other reasons. If you look at alchemical texts the smaller medicine is produced in the correct joining of fire and water where the greater medicine that one returns to refine is heaven and earth. If not mistaken it is not uncommon to see the trigrams for these organized in left-right and up-down respectively. That can hardly be coincidental. The Lo Shu is paramount and fundamental as i’ve come to understand it thus far. It has all directions, all compass points, a very specific pattern superimposed and more than a few Major rituals of balance between Heaven, Earth and Man connected to it with stepping patterns and footwork, and it covers the compass directions, their relative guardians and their respective armies, their sovereign rulers and the proper respect they are due. But the middle is always the greatest palace if i’m not mistaken. also: i think saying using one hand to weild a single sword is theonöy possibility, even if you never switch grip, sounds like inefficie t use of energy and momentum. But thats just me in a playful sunday mood now, never mind

Hehe, thanks for sharing that, i solidarize. But what you say about meditation and the conclusions you have found i agree. Hate bears crap fruit and anger is seldom as helpful as it’d like to convince us it is...

Statement no. (3) in OP is incorrect. Daoism does not relate Yin/Yang to F/M. People make this claim as an illustration of percieved polairty but the closes i’ve seen M/F interpretation is in the trigrams for fire and water, this being a description of pairs that may have outward appearance of difference but where their inner qualities ”belie” such appearance, to make a perhaps brash or overly simplifying statement. Without being presumtuous i refer you to Chapter 1 of the Dao De Jing, the text adresses observing wonders and manifestations and speaks briefly about the mystery of mysteries by way of mentioning unity. Hope this helps

I don’t think someone who mistreats somebody else, no matter the degree of violence used, is giving the gift of toughening that person up. If you have scars you have healed, if you have experiences and can exchange them from past tense baggage to present and future currency that is work you do for you. Being thankful for having gotten through stuff and to have had ones strenght and resilience confirmed by another, be it in positive or negative reflection, is paramount. Dont know if it sounds contraddictory but yeah... Thats you giving yourself high esteem, imho. Not really looking to argue a point, i’m just saying that showing gratitude towards someone who has made no effort to deserve it is generoisty and killing them with kindness, to their face. Feeling gratitude towards an abuser for their abuse because of what it has led to seems like running around in a circle. Personally, ok, no judgement, i’m just calling it out from my own experiences. I’ll never be grateful for the stuff that was done to me by others, my challenge is remembering these people were incapable of doing otherwise and never forgetting frugality and utilize what i seem to carry around still. If i’m keeping it around it’s either to be processed or already under way in transformation to treasurehood. Here’s what i think: what one suffers to shed is slag, treasure is kept effortlessly because of its refined nature, like extracting gold from stuff.

Respect.

Yes. Perfect stretch of the way to work out how to live with and let pass pain and hurt. Inner aspects of Iron Body so to speak.

Regarding betting on fights and MMA or Assassins: if you can afford it there are way better things to throw money at. Need a pocket to keep it in? Use mine!

Regarding ”cant be discussed here” there is also the aspect of being told this is how it is. Posit a teacher finds you, a student they trust, who seems to grasp the way of communication and transmission, perhaps the teacher then knows from experience how the skills and knowledge have pitfalls and before you’re given the green light to teach something you have been taught then your understanding of it isn’t complete enough to guide someone through those stages. You’re being taught certain formal exercises and some idiosyncracies but how you develop and retain it is going to shape your training also, because yout teacher will adapt to your particular situation. Also, secrets appear when teachers realize that people who want to be taught everything because they want to know it and people who have the capacity to learn and accept their teaching aren’t necessarily interested in carrying it on. If all you do is teach someone how to understand and use a set of skills and you see they themselves are not employing those skills to help those who might need them, thereby keeping the transmission alive, it’s not hard to see for someone who is concerned about transmission that their effort might be of better use somewhere else. Perhaps this ”stingy” student will find their connection with teacher has slowly slipped into distance, feel slighted because their training hasnt been completed and they worked hard, so then the rest of their techniques are secret. Not because they have to be but because certain students fail to recognize or match up to their teachers plan. Some people that have learned from the same teachers say contraddictlry things. Certain things might have deeper explanations that some recieved and some didnt. Nobody can tell from the outside but those who hold the transmission will recognize the telltale signs of someone who never had the opportunity to deepen their study around a particular concept. It’s a marker of sorts, this person didn’t advance further with teacher for some reason, perhaps i should be careful what i say, it might not be the right recipient for a valid reason... There is also the fact of checking your students mettle and character by telling them ”this is a secret, dont tell” and then observe said student. Are they making a big deal out of knowing secrets others dont? Are they excusing themselves saying ”sorry, i’m not in a place to discuss that.” Are they telling everyone out of excitement thereby disobeying but with no malicious intent? Are they disseminating secrets maliciously or misrepresenting things because of ignorance? Some teachers are unbelievably strict and have standards so high they’d rather kill their art than transmit it to a doofus or bully. They wont tell because they couldnt immagine openly disrespecting somebody like that but it’s their responsibility. Traditional teachers are often considering things out of a perspective that involves a pretty complicated big picture, considering their own responsability towards their art and the people that trust them for help.

Awesome topic! Serious importantometers hitting max and staying there. I felt the need to post this now but i’ll be back with a clearer head soon, skip if you want, it’s not i portant Not done reading all the posts or links but this is some highly important stuff to adress, i’m personally invested in it and it seems that The Dark Night(s?) are warned about in a lot of traditional sources. Zen writings (still funny) are pretty clear about the ”do or die” nature of the path. Daoist sources talk of pitfalls, malpractice, insincerity, imbalances and never deny the yin darkness, cessation before reanimation and so on. i’ve not been thoroghly sheltered in life but i cant even begin to immagine what people go through on the daily, what some consider normal etc. But the dark night seems like a point some reach because of the truth of ”do or die, your choice.” is pretty easy to push ahead. But staying in refusal of willingness to continue, it being worth itself and to fight for. TM mentioned the Diamond Core. Nothing dissappears, darkness can be repressed and every bill comes due. TDNoS is scary as life, i’ve started to see part of it as a cave, during a certain time it looked like the arena of irony, one for hopeless battles and wars and then i actually used some of those IQ-points i used to be so proud of and realized i could leave. Then i realized the cave was part of me, it’s a useful place and i return there anytime i’m unwittingly afflicted by selfgrandiose stupidity and a feeling of powerlessness. It’s like a collection of roads that lead someplace when i take a wrong turn and mistake obvious shit for impossible conundrums, sorta. At one point i was trying to describe sorrow and unwittingly went into a ”room” full of familiar entities, it was a dimly illuminated hall and everyone was gathered there, sunlight came in through an opening in the roof and when i came in everyone fell silent. A sensation of recognition filled the room and i was acknowledged by those present, i cried and cried and realized that the sunlight was shining on a center where something was missing, but it wasnt lost. It was not my place to stand in the light of course but i had neglected showing up for a long long time, thinking it wasn’t there or that i wasn’t part of the solution. Turns out i was wrong. As soon as i had accepted my willful absence and stopped being ashamed of having been too foolish to realize it, everybody stood up, said ”welcome back, we missed you” and went about their business. That wasn’t the cave, that wasn’t leaving the cave, but realizing the nature and contents of the cave were part of something i’m part of it got easier distinguishing what was me, what was false-me and what wasn’t me. I think that preambled what i call ”The Dark Pre-dawn Wee Hours of the Soul.” I dont think it’s an affliction, i think it’s what happens when stubbornness and acceptance don’t agree. Maybe?

Riffing on a theme for the sake of further discussion, i think you nailed it from the start though. I’m starting to see the predawn wee-hours of the soul and i went through all three, huge bunnyears on the ”enlightenment” part since i’m obviously not shooting bolts of lightning from my eyes and there have been no diamond and gemstone precipitations. A little dissappointed about that, no biggie. But returning to the entrance of the cave, or reemerging into normal life, i think it might be a good sign if you did stumble over illusions, nihilism and crazy. They are huge deals, but belong in the cave: cling and be poisoned. Even the cave has its limits. But thats just a parenthesis. Stoked about this thread!

You here now?

Yo, not to be all up in Michaels grille about stuff because his recount of alchemy above here is valid and important, but as far as my humble knowledge of Daoist practices i’d argue that the Principle of Correspondance is relevant as illustration but only partially so, unless my understanding of it is skewed. I speak as officially uninitiated into any Nei Dan tradition afaik, bear this in mind, i’ve just kept DDJ, Chuangs classic and Sifus teachings close to heart to my best ability. I’m pretty much uninterested in the allure of occultism and esoterics for their own sake and i have more than a few bones to pick with perennialism, Plato, Aristotle ans Descartes just to name a few... i say this as a caveat against stepping on toes primarily, i might be misconstruing the whole thing! Hermetics are hermetic because they require initiation, but what survives of the active traditions seems to spring from self-initiation. Here goes: ”As above, so below” is a matter of importance for pointing towards observing the great principle of say, interplay and transformation (5 phases or taiji), but as i understand European alchemical traditions they spring from hard metaphysical ideals, whereas Daoism and Daoist alchemy seems to be less mentalist in relating to the Arts and Sciences. I think there are dangerous pitfalls in equating too much between different alchemical traditions besides their focus on research and transformative action and interpretation. Daoist method seems to place a lot of aimed focus in the specific situation, interrelationship of agents and the operator together. Hermetic, Cerimonial Magic etc texts keep, imho, a hard line of detachment between the operator and their work, even though the operator is a noble scholar and transformational adept. It’s vertical where Daoist thinking seems to be more 3D, high principles are such because of depth and not because of increasing simplification or closeness to divinity. The Art and the Artifacts have objective value in European traditions afaiu, there is a primary focus on implementing the principles from abstracts to the lab environment, making correspondences depend on objective essentials or qualities that derive from an unadulterated source. A priori knowledge is seeking corroboration and reproductibility(?). Daoist texts seem to advocate a more mnemonic oriented organization of correspondances to distinguish characteristics depending on their role in a given context. The principles derive from relational and observational interplay, not the x-ness of an x-thing if you catch my drift? It should also be noted that i often feel the unease i immagine Frege felt around logic and mathematical formulae because of the absurd lack of stringent use and interpretation. That guy got it so bad he went and properly defined the fundamental axioms of mathematics to fix a problem with degrading discipline in previous operators. I dare not compare myself to that level of dedication or discipline, but i just feel the need to say ”hold on, are sure we’re not relying too heavily on habit and interchangeability, the cultural aspect and origins must still matter somehow right?” 2 cents worth of speculation, peace!

Maybe i will, maybe i wont, how about that? 😘 Doc and Levi Roots the teleporter? Däng Ra, sounds like Huddersfield is a good place to go wtf-spotting! i agree, we know, and yet we dont.

Guess you’re keepin up with the times then. 😂 For me either was or some Sage sent one of his friends to poke fun a d help me out. Maybe its like you say, or maybe they manifest in those who are needed right there. Besides those lineage guys who obviously hang out in temples dling their thing. My Older Brother and me always had this drunk show up early as shiet when we were doing polearm and form training in the park. Suddenly he’d just be sitting there, fresh golden beercan in his hand (bought from where nobody know because it was way early) and looking at us, whooping loudly when Sihing or me finally aced certain techniques. He’d salute us and just ghost right before we called it off for the morning. I think he was limping and we used to joke it might be old Iron Crutch having a cordial laugh at us.

And this is why TDB is such a lovely place! Nice thread!! In cantonese i think M Hei translates both as Five Forms/States as well as Five Energies, correct me if i’m wrong please. Gives yet another opening to see the breadth and depth of utility to the model. Their names can be misguiding as i dont think they were intended to be viewed separately all that much. You could call them five types of roles in interactions, there is little use in talking about just the fire element say, because fire relates directly in different to at least three of the other four. Fire is a certain property or disposition by it own sure but it is stustained from a phase, moves towards another, is disrupting to a third and threatened by a fourth. Lovely to see the five point cross also, isn’t that model used to describe movement and footwork in TaiJi? Five directions, eight stratagems? I am real excited to hear about the five classical planets minus the two luminaries, giving us an opening to wave to our old friends yin and yang also. Permutations of Sun-like qualities and Moon-like qualities give rise to another tool for observing interrelationship and developmental stages/states such as the Bagua if i’m not again mistaken. I’d say there is the small Fire and the big Fire also, but i’ve only run across it once so i’m unsure as to where it is, i’m guessing five point cross.

That is my word. You wanna hear something SERIOUSLY well timed? A more or less hour ago, about the exact same time you posted the above, i was sitting in the only open pharmacy waiting forever for my turn to get my late-arrival prescription for SSRIs, everybody in there is pissed off. Being an introverted sod and getting real close to my discomfort zone, 12+ hours over my dose-time, this hood kid sits his friend down next to me, weaves me into his conversation and starts cracking hysterical jokes, being obnoxious and hilarious. I tag along because i cant help myself and take a few good breaths. 15 people in the room, 12 of them just start giggling, 3 morons grab their valuables andmove far away from him. He’s still dropping low-key funnies all casually like it’s nothing. Basically everybody relaxes because this youngster defuses the room. Then this real annoying lady, talking to herself, pissed and pissed off, sits next to me and my anxiety swings back in effect. I joke you not, that kid takes a look at me, cracks something hilarious and asks to switch numbers with me, knowing full well i came in half an hour after him. I protest but he sticks his ticket in my hand and BING there go my number, his number. I go do my business incredulously, bump knuckles and hug the obvious Sage before me, he’s gets all shy, gives me a cocky but cute smile and returns the pleasantries like a gentleman. That shut me up for callin these guys out So FYI: there is a young Sage in Malmö, afroswedish kid from the borough south from me. He knows how to harmonize people’s emotional states and pacify a room full nearing their patience limit, misdirect belligerous alcoholics, he works number magic and knows how to make people work faster without even speaking to them directly. Great Heart Conquering Gong, Cooling Breeze Gong, Serendipitous Moment Skill and Diamond Reflecting Sight Method. If you can find him tell him i’m on to his charade and am grateful. Right, i almost forgot: somewhere in our first interaction the guy even asks me if i have a job for him, making sure that it’s a serious question.

Cool, altars are quite the tricky business, but really lovely to fuss about with. It looks great and you went through a lot of work to make it happen! I remember going about from shop to shop to find The Perfect cups to offer libations, turns out i already had three matching ones at home that were wrapped and unused and just right. Sifu helped me adjust a few details using the most unspecial scraps of stuff, converting their use and purpose completely and fixing it just right. I can understand the feeling of it not belonging to you, especially if it hasn’t been opened. I felt pretty weird around my altar and the illustrious one having a furnitured living space in my house, even though it was opened and everything. We started getting along in a week roundabout. The most important rule i’ve found is honesty of heart and respectful openness to the connection such a tool can help you establish. If done right and proper any material can be perfect, if done wrong or for the wrong reasons you could make it out of gemstones only and it would be uninhabitable if you know what i mean? Offerings, asking for help or guidance, sitting in quiet coexistance. Imho, the altar is yours as a belonging. An extension of your house, your inner space, a place of meeting. Whom you invite there are permanent guests in your home and will always behave impeccably as long as you treat them with the earnest kindness and respect like you would treat a long lost friend or grandparent, someone that is impossible to harbor secrets or misgivings from and whose judgement and knowledge you trust completely. I know that i am know to them better than i do myself, their vision of me is far less judgemental but far more demanding. Sometimes my venerable cohabitant is away on business, sometimes i can only offer a thought although i’d like to talk for hours, but the light is never off and i would never refuse him anything, so he shows understanding towards my occasional forgetfulness or lack of quiet mind. You have many good things in store for you, don’t be shy!

Yo! If somebody knows where they are dont tell us for Heavens sake, tell THEM to git their elusive selves out and do some actual work. We’re swamped over here and these people are acting seven kinds of precious, i mean really.

Well, as @七星門 was pointing to, the seemingly intense perceptions you have sound like quite a nuisance to me, i’d be overwhelmed and reeling in no time. Do you have some way to ignore, dissipate or go off-line from the state? Interesting about the hair acting as a shielding layer though, my experiences point to the opposite: if i’m diligent about keeping it short and in auspicious balance to my shape, i feel clearer inside and less invaded by external distraction.. Longhairs of olde were said to respect their mother and jing so deeply they couldn’t stand to excise willful violence to their natural manifestations, such as messing with hair growth. When it reached the lenght it stayed at it was supposedly in balance with things... don’t ask me for a source, i’m to confused to remember. What i can say is that most longhairs did the top-bun to keep their manes in check and stay out of their eyes ^^

Yes! I hadn’t thought of it before you mentioned him but where’d he go? He’d always be already in on and ahead of on good stuff popping up on here. He’s on hiatus?

Doing something enjoyable for yourself when you are tired or spent, such as listening to some music, can help you regenerate many different types of energy. Your whole will respond a certain way to stimuli. I’d say thats a small version of taking external qi into you and using it to bolster. Sometimes it gives you something immediate and sometimes it’s more of a creeper, sometimes you get zip-shit and sometimes it boosts you then and there and fills you with long burning fuel for the next few days. Many MANY valid and useful points have already been done here so i’ll just add that there is no exact rule as to what messes your particular energies up. There are more or less smart ways to use them and someone versed in such research can show you and help you along. Without trying to stir some fronting up i could argue your initial reading of LaoZi was a bigger drain on your jing and qi than eating some tasty stuff and bopping your top record when you feel like it, having a fap if you feel it’d be good for you or whatever. (How to you like my devils attorey suit? I just bought it for almost nothing at discount ) How could LaoZi know what music does to you? He was, as has been pointed out, making an example of how what you know and observe as something ridgidly contained (five tonalities of color or sound) then you miss out on it’s influence and relationship with other things, are you even observing them in a context that is correct or useful? A good way to start is turning hearing inwards. But then again that hearing is not as litteral as one might immagine. You have six senses right? One body and mind to explore and go about doing stuff. Sitting still, forgetting, not letting five somethings lead you astray etc, that’s all good advice on how to sharpen and calibrate your tools and not make hammers and nails out of anything unless you need a hammer and nail, in which case what kind and how? What do you want to achieve? How would you gow about doing that? How will it influence and interrupt what is around you? How does it resonate with your nature? Shurely there must be a Way and some means to find out right?

To clarify, i litterally teared up like this man above when i learned of this, there is no quip or irony implied.

Hullo! So, i’ve been after some source or resource on those old knotted-string record keeping systems that are said to have preceded actual chinese writing systems, back in the day when people wore leaves and did their thing. I’ve heard that some of it survived old Sage Fu (is it?) when he came and taught people pictowriting. I saw something a while back that could have been a callback to that system if not a later use of it to codify or compress information. Hard to say of course, i’m stumbling in the dark (usual pasttime) I’m doing a spot of research and deciphering and google was unfriendly about this since selling cord and tutorials for decorative knotwork is just waaaay more en vogue than so e stuffy academia about intelectually functional knots on strings. Do share here or shoot me a PM if you are able and so inclined, just some pointers as to what the practice is called, if you know the characters that make up its name in traditional or modern writing or sysgemic romanization, anything to point in a general direction, i’d be over the moon about it!