Rocky Lionmouth

Ugh. This is why we cant have nice things. And also, notincidentally, this thread got real old real fast. And as a parting gift to the thread which i hope shall continue merrily with wathever is going on now: whoever invented the pizza-drone did not account for seagulls. Tenacious, incredibly skilled at recognition and relentless when in groups. Which they form as soon as there is opportunity. Fresh, tasty food buzzing through the skies like that will lead to an odd precipitation of mauled drones and respective parts, pizza cartons and discarded toppings.

I’m still mulling your take on yinyang simply meaning polarity Krankenhaus, but the rest of your breakdown above sounds legit. Imho TaiJiTu describes the progress of changes and how they transform and balance and that within the whole their existance is mutually generated and supported. Yin and Yang exist as such because something wasn’t and this lead to it culminating and at that point the shift happened, it began and so there was the not-moving and moving fluidly shifting proportion and once both were they have not stopped since. It is nice though that the ”eyes” gives a layer of correspondence with kan and li, but its not enough really, not for me. The transformation and potential of each towards the other is of its own because there is no room for there to be just one and/or the other. The polarities or simultaneous complements carry the seed of their own counterpart because they cant be exactly pure. Movement presupposes rest and rest likewise must at its own core presuppose movement. And if either of them doesnt the you have Wuji, no-thing and nothing. Its not even a vacuum, its the utter absence of both something and nothing. Thats the beauty of the Schroedinger quote Lima threw in there: no barrier exists. Movement cannot exist without being born out of rest and returning there before beginning anew, and vice versa. Breaking Yin and Yang down further isn’t really possible i think, they’re as far as the breakdown goes before arriving at the whole shabam of the Dao being everything and then some. Kranks shows the way to go to describe any reasonable breakDOWN of Yin and Yang, because you don’t get further up without arriving at the all encompassing and therefore greater unified Dao. So down it goes, in myriad progressions of yin yang into ever smaller details and so greater number. Just because the 64 hexagrams are something of a finite set that supposedly describes all (aberrant) change it doesn’t mean there ISN’T yet another and another yin and yang subset. It’s elephants all the way down o the utter botto, where there is yet another group of elephants standing on their own lower group of elephants. (All the way down)+n1 where n is the amount of further layers. .... or at least thats my current take on it. By the way i HAVE seen Pies in the sky once, they were accidentally propelled above head height of all present and subsequently landed on the edible side sadly and were this spoiled for the most part but what crubs were salvaged tasted great. Then there’s the pie-throwing crowd, they put pies in the sky willingly. Once i saw a muffin-shaped hot-air balloon and that counts too, as well as the one with the Pi symbol on it...

Second Aetherous on this, good aim there! I think TCM (for my laymans uniformed opinion of it) shouldn’t be confused with cultivation practices as such. Dissolving the ego doesn’t actually suggest obliteratinging it, rather making it not-solid. Ok i might be looking too hard at semantics but if you dissolve something it usually entails a solvent and results in a mix of the dissolved and the solvent. Like Ride suggests, a transformation. The ego dissolved in the solvent isn’t as it was before transformation, but its components have shifted and merged with more, or are at least not as rigid and defined as previously. Worth remembering is that self and ego and mind and all sorts of words are used in spiritual contexts to describe ”the enemy”. Not sure what the chinese texts use but i’m pretty sure the use of ego is due to its connotation of self-image, self-knowledge and most relevantly perhaps: the illusion of these and other things. Imo having no sense of self probably wasn’t a very good idea to go about in life even in a hypotethical China of 1000 yersteryears, i think there was far less support for someone in a bout of self-loss. Today there’s psychiatry and drugs and mental instittions and DSMs and people who can get better from suffering from issues related to the ego. Yet, as you point out OP, suffering and pain still abounds... perhaps as much as it used to do 1 or 10 thousands of years ago? We’ve been Homo Sapiens for a lot longer and it’s quite recent that we record our misery for others to view it, our tribulations are perhaps older than us as a spieces, who knows? Sages and enlightened people are spoken about as adaptive, boundless and knowing but not lacking in boundaries or sense of self. They seem to possess quite a lot of it, turning away people who arent ready, withdrawing from nosepokers, understaing their own and others place among things and what have you. Heart in Chinese, again layman if not bumbling idiot speaking here, seems to refer to a true and honest mind and awareness, capable of discerning purpose and directing intent. Not mind mind exactly but a broader spectrum including our emotional intelligence, intuition, experiential knowledge and general quality of mind and spirit. At least from what i can understand of cultivation practices. 2 cents, awesome topic!

Good to hear Clouds! Anytime, with wishes of being not needed for a good long while yet.

Do you also have this feeling he gets around some? I do. Yo Starman, do you? I’m reading your description as if you saw it from outside of yourself, as if being a spectator to a visitation, am i getting it wrong? I think @Aetherous has a valid point for you to consider, the man has chops. Second on the notion of noticing a demonic visitation is more likely in the borderlands between sleep and wakefullness. As far as ”real”* dreams go my working hypothesis is they’re an internal experience, sort of like the pop-science explanation that its either your brain ”sorting” things out after a day of making new connections and rehasing old stuff or that it’s the id blurbing stuff with some editing from the self and superego as far as the imagery goes... One thing that strikes me is that you call it a demon. Not an entity, not a ghost, not a monster or disfigured man; demon is the name you give it. This might be relevant for your understanding of what this could be about. It’s interesting you say it’s a deep fear and that you don’t fully understand it, yet in this dream the demon actually interacting directly with you caused you to yell (expressing, calling for help, activating adrenal response, expelling old breath forcefully to energize and increase oxygenation) and then wake up. This is a long shot but interpreting it there are two powerful actions you undertook, you strengthen your body (yelling) and changed the rules of the situation (waking up). This fear might have quite an effect on you but your dreaming and waking speaks to your being equipped to deal with it. There might be something to the fact it made a hissing/sibilating sound and you’re quite positive it was a he-demon but the face was, as it were, indistinguishable. More possible clues to pinpoint the object of your fear. It wants to touch you when you are most vulnerable or relaxed, there’s a hissing noise, it is male (many possible interpretations there) but it is not a knowable individual, but you can respond and escape the situation. Analyze wide and laterally, look at scary concepts and what you consider yourself vulnerable to or what is worrysome when you feel at ease. Idk where you’re from and what your cultural influences are but what demons are considered to be where you’re from can give you yet more clues to the nature of this phenomenon that you fear exposion to. My notion lf demons is that they posess some sort of supernatural powers, have a maglinant intent and purpose to cause harm either by own volition or by order of others who wield power over them, they’re not really of this world but arent really spirits (neutral, dead folks, nature or location etc) nor deities or immortals. Christianity has demons pegged as fallen angels (often at least) and Chinese folklore etc, fwik, signifies demons to be reincarnations or enitites below human level as far as development goes, they’re angry and raging but can also be under the appropriated service of benevolent deities among others... Idk, food for thought Toni, most of all i advise you not to give this demon more power over you than you’re comfy with. Just because it’s scary it don’t mean it can do anything to you. *real dreams ie the ones that just happen when you sleep, distinguishable from lucid dreams, astral(?) stuff, half waking visions etc.

I mean for how long had Narada been seeing the great master anyway? That piece of conversation they had there did not occur a moment too soon. Poor Narada though, what a blockhead, his master had to split his log to unify him. But his master made a mistake, he steered Narada right into the trap of thinking of who is who and persons and shirts, he’ll hit a decent sized wall with his log pretty soon again.

Never heard of the technique before, sounds like a fairly scary dream though. Dreamwork is fairly finnicky business it seems, pretty advanced and i’d wager someone with more knowledge than me can chime in on protective measures or routines. What was your feeling when this demon touched you? Why was it there do you think? How did your sleeping self react to the touch? Sometimes things can seem scary but their looks hide their purpose or role. If you seemed to sleep on undisturbed by its touch it can mean such a thing has no power over you, even though it was close and did its very best. Or, and i’m not saying it has to be like this, but perhaps you just dreamt your fears and saw them clearly, but it was just a dream so know you know more than before? I think sleep should be practiced for its main purposes, ie rest, recuperation and relaxation. If you study a full body relaxation exercise with some nice deep breathing and focus on finding a refreshing rest while sleeping and waking up energized i think you’ll experience a fairly dreamless sleep. Try it out?

Condoleances.

Thank you, i’d be worried if you weren’t.

You guys have thumbs?!?!

Is it possible not to be in the Dao?

Most kind of you, Cah. As for having a good grasp on the Dao (which i certainly don’t if we speak of the Dao dao you know?) i’ll paraphrase my Sifus approach to holding: too loose you won’t have much control, too hard you cant move your wrist and your whole arm becomes useless. I’d be honored to teach you, sadly my only formal training is in martial arts and i cant really teach you without physical proximity You’d be surprised as to how many great teachers are on here. Some of the most shining ones have left us in more or less permanent ways but there’s quite a few really knowledgeable and skilled folks left. But i’ll do my best to aid you should you need me, holla!

Regardless it must be quite vast! You should see the field in which tao grows me, it’s ridiculusly small!

Shit does happen and oftentimes i am over it, at least in comparison to how often i find myself under it. I’m content not to soil my pants or get under my own shit any more often than strictly necessary.

Oh, pardon me, i wasn’t saying you were comparing to or with christianity. I meant that all that struggle you went through is still affecting you a lot from what i can gather, even though you managed to, figuratively, come ashore from being shipwrecked you’re still holding on to the struggle of it all, the lonelyness and pain and anger. It’s a great floatation device but unless you’re going swimming you don’t need it at the moment. Presumptuous of me to speak like this but it thought, hey, what the hell, lemme stay true to what i percieve and offer it, should it be wrong or of no use to you then lets chuck it in the bin. On a note of clarification: Daoism isn’t a religion as most of people who have grown up in a culture where abrahamitic religions have or had significant influence culturally. It’s far too vast and unruly to be of such a unified structure. Daoism is hard to pin down but consider it more of a collection of knowledge and practice of use to those who wish to navigate our surroundings in a sustainable and honest way. No self respecting daoist would dream of convincing you to abandon your viewpoint for theirs as it is, iirc, considered a violence towards both your and their true nature. Any words spoken here on the subject of your viewpoints or ideas being this or that is only a way to convince you that there is so much more you can see and experience for yourself. Practices are well defined, especially at first, but most of all it’s like a lot of life-skills and instruments to deal with things as efficiently as possible without violating their suchness or interconnectedness. The Dao gives zero shits about anyone, it’s for us to try to either follow it to our advantage or oppose it to our detriment. Nobody (worth spending time with imo at least) gives an equal amount of shits of wether you agree with them or not, a daoist do however care about seeing you be the most you and thriving that way, but will only speak to it if they think you need the words or if they deem your relationship suitable to develop and share certain ideas and practices. The only opinion you need is your own. LaoZi is very clear about this. Zhuang Zi also. As far as proselytizers, zealots and charlatans Daoism is full of those to the same extent as the general human population is.

I for one enjoy my dubious balance and balance my doubts against it. The trick about balance is to maintain it without killing the slight offset. Once it reaces perfection it becomes still and then there is only death. Which is often accompanied by voiding onse bladder and bowels soon after, i’d rather keep my pants unsoiled a while longer. When you’re very near that perfect balance it’s also when things get really hard to shift or lift, which takes a lot of effort and should that effort be excessive and/or misguided: voila! Soiled pants. Lets all agree that the Dao gives no shit and rightly so and that for us to follow in it’s footsteps on this as much as possible is a pretty decent idea.

Since all the important stuff has been said already i can only offer some advice you didn’t ask for: You learned critical thinking and the cost of not appeasing those who find comfort in certainty and discomfort in seeing others behave in ways they don’t allow themselves. Good. Swords to ploughshards, you won the war of deciding how to walk for yourself and it’s now time to move on. Remember critical thinking, forget the pain of detaching yourself from even greater pain, it was worth it. Old soul is one of those things people throw about for flattery. Disregard such opinions, in fact my advice is to disregard all compliments except their function as a gift to you. Brash is good when useful just as gentle or diplomatic have their use. Remember what Lao zi wrote about beauty and uglyness etc? People who praise are trying to make you happy, some of them are looking to make you feel indebted. Accept gifts, not strings. All that anger, resentment and betrayal(?) that arose during your questioning and finding a direction of your own way has played its justified, real and important role. You don’t need it any longer. Carry it for as long as you wish, but do so with awareness of it’s past due date. Not a single taoist teacher worth their salt or pepper will take you in while you cling to the piece of flotsam now that you’re back ashore, they’ll recognize you being too busy carrying around driftwood and comparing every tree and wooden utensil you see to it. Don’t huff and scoff at those who seem lost, anxious and unfullfilled. You’re highly likely to feel and seem that way during times in your life, it will not point to your effort or direction being meaningless. Their effort and practice might be just the right one, but at this current point in their life it looks as it does to you. It says little about their path and where they’ll end up finding themselves one day. Chill, listen and select what is useful to you. Overall you might want to shift your approach towards gathering more data and away from coming to conclusions about things. My suggestion is to instead learn to observe the small things, the lesser voices and whispers rather than the ongoing noise of the world, your thoughts, other peoples mouths etc. Infer what makes sense in specific situations, disregard blanket statements and certainties of the general kind. Oh, btw, good on you for finding this place. Don’t be too harsh on us, yourself or others, i’m guilty of a lot of the things i caution you against and probably otherwise just running my mouth so yeah. Cheers!

Vis a vis forms looking different from teacher to teacher i’ll offer a perspective: its not uncommon for a grandmaster or deeply skilled lineage holder to teach their disciples according to their need and expression, even encouraging the personal touches. Forms are formal but cant always fit every body or every practicioner, so if one source is survived by multiple sources who have all recieved transmission it will look very different between them, because the body that inherits is it’s own as well. just two cents because my man LL Cool is always a pleasure to read. Hope you’re well friend!

So anybody smell some shit in the woods during the last few weeks?

Being in non-denial of ones humanity - nail hit on the head Spots! Being in non-denial of ones own existance, place and how fluid these points of reference really are. I’m still somewhere between thinking that there is no magic and no supernatural, that we can be both wrong and right simultaneously in our more or less fine tuned perception of whatever this is. And yet there is that whole bunch of Other that is something and no-thing. It’s as if materialism is the answer as long as it does not exclude things that are usually thought of as belonging to a non materialist scope. Have cake, eat it, dont eat it, keep it. Does it even matter in the end? There was this show i was watching yesterday about Tjernobyl and the accident there, a scene where a soldier explains his realization after killing a man for the first time and i’ll try my best to paraphrase how it resonated with me: You dont recognize yourself anymore, thinking you will never be you again after such an act. Then the next day you’re still you. Same old you. After a while you come to realize it was that you all along, that very same you and you never realized it, never knew it was there all along. Awareness of ones own humanity, you have to live with it. Even if you become an immortal or shen, xiang, whathaveyou you are still. You are and You are not because that You is just smoke and mirrors. Fix as it can seem it’s just a vain misconception. And upon that hitting you in a visceral sense you can see and be the Other also, but it makes this reality of being human ever more real. Then it unfolds. Currently i deal a lot with asking direct questions and pointing out, alarmingly often, that the answer i recieve is not an answer. ”Will you be in X-town on the 5th of this month?” is an impossible question to answer. No one answers this with a simple yes or no, rather exchange their answer for a statement and/or a counter-request. Why? I have no clue. I suspect it has to do with trying to order the world into comprehensibility without losing control, or rather without realizing the brittleness of ”reality” as we know it. Whoops... i digress. I’ll post it either way, maybe there is something here.

Thats cool! Hope you have a good one there!

Well said Cloud!

Impossible for it to give a shit about anything, it is none of the Daos concern to care and especially not care more about something than something else, especially by human distinctions. It grinds the land like corn, and turns the stars over within a heartbeat and with no remorse.

Thanks for sharing that experience Dog, i had an almost identical experience just two days ago during a discussion on what yon and yang actually are, its quite the thing to multitask repairing ones inner ”fusebox”, figuring out the response and dealing with it to fruitful means. I knida bungled the last step though... might have accused a lazily quessplaining windbag of being a lazy windbag.... whoops. 😬 I think an ill wind that widens your knowledge of self must be blowing at least some good maybe? Not to force a silver lining on you, i just mean even if the whole thing was a negative instance you seem to have made yourself a glass of lemonade. I really like what you wrote in the last paragraph! Lemme get back to you on virtue, i’m interested to read fellow Bums views too! If i may be so bold: i think that would make a great thread on its own too!

This young blockhead asks your patience and illumination on this matter, Each phase having a spirit does ring familiar but i can’t say where i read it. My question sprang from suddenly realizing while writing the post you replied to that i hadn’t studied Yi at all, while still claiming to use it and presuming to know what it is. Unsubstantiatedly so 😁