mjjbecker

Did Jim tell you about the student who blew a valve in his heart while practising this? Or about the others who have had heart attacks and strokes? I suspect not. Drew, you don't know the half of it. Best, Mike

Are you unable to disagree without resorting to this? If it is the method, then say what your issue is. If it is the idea of face reading, then simply say so. If you simply want to advertise your ignorance, then carry on the way you have so far. FWIW, I know John Chang does face reading. He did it for one of my Greek brothers in 2002 when he visited Athens. I was sat next to my brother at the time. Best, Mike

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A very wise post. Thank you. One thought though. Do we get to choose our path? The more I experience life, the more I think not. Best, Mike

that was one of the worst tao te ching translations I have ever seen When YOU can provide a translation from your OWN efforts, then you MAY have a right to make such a statement. All be it, an ignorant and rude one, but at least you would be able to direct us in the subtle areas of distinction between the translators interpretation and the way that the text may otherwise be interpreted. To do that you would NEED to have an understanding of the original Chinese characters and their usage. Regarding esoteric texts, an actual understanding of the matters being discussed is also VERY significant. Otherwise, the translator lacks the tools to correctly interpret what they see. My comments were not at all about MY defending or preferring the particular translation I used-they ARE about you throwing out opinions based on nothing but your seemingly VERY limited education and experience in these matters. You don't read or speak any Chinese language or dialect. You CERTAINLY therefore cannot read modern simplified, traditional or ancient Chinese script. Pray tell me what 'written Mandarin' is, BTW, because in over two years of living in China I have not encountered it... You have not been directly instructed in any ancient tradition-Daoist or Buddhist. And yet... You happily dismiss things you don't know anything about. Now please understand, I have no objections whatsoever to you having your opinions. I only object to your seeming inability to politely express them. You all too freely say how wrong or bad something is. If you feel that way, fine. Just spare the judgemental comments, because you don't have anything like the education or experience to be qualified enough to back up your opinions. BTW, as Craig stated, there IS no difference in the essence of the two translations you compare. You see, it is all about the EXPERIENCE and UNDERSTANDING of the reader here that counts. No, I am not going to enter into a discussion with you regarding this, because you haven't learned enough to offer any kind of significant or relevant observations-yet. If one day you get past your ego and decide to go out and learn, instead of imposing your own world view on things you have no understanding of, then I will be happy to. Sincerely, Mike

Nor do you reflect on their difference in race. In a word, genetics. Don't tell me it plays no significance here, because it is the most significant factor here. My great grandmother had nine children. Her life was not one of much happiness and she was not blessed with a pleasant disposition. On the day of her death at the age of 93 she still had natural jet black hair. Genetics. The fact is, if Max preached the mantra of full lotus, you would be singing his praises. You are a pseudo-scientist of the worst kind, because you ONLY ever take whatever 'evidence' you can find to fit to your preconceived notions of what is 'right'. You show no interest in allowing the evidence to make the conclusion. You repeat the same things over and over like a stuck record. Carry on throwing brickbats at others and I will happily dismantle the logic behind the nonsense you are happy to post here on a frequent basis.

Even better would be for findley to demonstrate his own translation skills. findley, I suspect you have no qualifications whatsoever to judge this translation, yet you release a completely pointless criticism. Do you have any knowledge of the Chinese languages and dialects? Have you studied the cultures at all? Have you ever studied a tradition? I don't mean the tantric masturbation you practice from reading a book, I mean have you been accepted into a school? All of the above I suspect not, but do prove me wrong if you can and I will apologise. I think I wont be humbling myself any time soon in your direction. Given your various utterly uninformed comments that you have decided to 'share' with everyone, I feel this quote fits you better: Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools talk because they have to say something. Plato Should it be necessary to point it out, the second clause applies to you. Go and learn something. Then you will have an informed opinion, not simply an opinion that informs others you know nothing. Mike

I'm not ignoring others and that is precisely my point. I am following a 'living' tradition, one that stretches back, unbroken, into the distant past. I'm drawing on that unbroken knowledge and wisdom. In another thread I quoted Newton: 'If I have seen further than others it is because I have stood on the shoulders of giants.' That is exactly how I feel. I feel very humbled that teachers have seen fit to allow me to be a part of this vast and profound heritage. That some-and I am not saying this is you-would belittle or 'poo poo' this heritage is deeply offensive. Not to my ego, but to the hundreds and thousands of people who have given their lives to allow some of us to start from a much higher level of knowledge than we otherwise would have. That others would do things differently from me, I have no problem with at all. I would not say they were wrong, I would not insist they were deluded. I would wish them well and the best of luck. It is their shame, not mine, that they would return courtesy with boorish and rude behaviour. I don't care what people think of me. I will not sit by and see this heritage slandered by those who have not the slightest inkling of what they are pissing on. Best, Mike

Marvellous. Thank you.

These comments are not just directed at any one person. The issue here-going back to the original point made-was that movement practices are "a waste of time". That is what is claimed in the title of the thread. Now, Messrs Bodri, Nan, etc are all entitled to their opinions. However, the use of movement practices is widespread and fundamental to many schools. That includes the Mo Pai, and that includes other esoteric schools I have been accepted into also. This I speak of from experience, which I will take over what is written in a book, regardless of who the author is supposed to be. All in all, a combined body of knowledge covering several thousand years. Direct, unbroken line experience. Direct, unbroken transmission. I've not read all the classics, nor have I met the Buddha, Bodri or Nan. I have met my teachers and I've experienced some of what they can do. You can argue over this till you are blue in the face, but some of us will take EXPERIENCE over BOOKS. There is a WORLD of difference between direct transmission and books. There is NO replacement for it. It is a fundamental part of esoteric traditions. I will take this over translations of books, limited not only by time but by the understanding of the scribe and the translator. Unless you have transmission, you DON'T really understand what is being said anyway. There is a WORLD of difference between 'inside the door' and 'outside the door' understanding. I am sure the above statement won't be appreciated by some, but it is simply the way it is. Live and let live, we can all agree to disagree. Do whatever you want, whatever works for you. Just don't tell me you are right and I am wrong when you base it off what you read, not what you've experienced, and you don't have a fraction of the level of attainment of someone like John Chang and all the others who DO use movement practices. Don't tell me what you've read, tell me what you can DO. Also, for those who love the 'classics', consider how much of the following advice you actually follow: Sincere words are are not sweet, Sweet words are not sincere. Good men are not argumentative, The argumentative are not good. The wise are not erudite, The erudite are not wise. The Sage does not take to hoarding, The more he lives for others, The fuller his life. The more he gives, The more he abounds. The Way of Heaven is to benefit, Not to harm. The Way of the Sage is to do his duty, Not to strive with anyone. Lao Tzu Tao Teh Ching I refer you in particular to the comments regarding sweet words, being argumentative, the erudite not being wise and particularly about the Way of the Sage doing his duty and not striving with others. There has been a lot of putting down others practices and pissing contests going on around here of late. Best, Mike

When you look down your nose at people you can expect a snotty response. Pun intended. Insults? You are taking yourself far more seriously than anyone else is.

Not nearly as odd as someone thinking they have all the answers.

Surely it is simply best not to be up anyone's arse-unless you are consenting adults.

Yes, he hit the nail on the head, didn't he?

Why?

Neigong and qigong methods use both moving and static techniques. What exactly John Chang does at his current level, I don't know. I DO know to get there, he used both moving and static techniques. There isn't any skipping this. Best, Mike

The books are interesting but they are no 'bible' by any means. I am a little worried you seem to be relying on them for detail that isn't there. There is a LOT that isn't in the books. That fact is VERY significant. The books were put out to provide information that such abilities as those John Chang has are real. That is it. Most people don't know that 'Inner Traditions' changed the title of the second book. The original title was, 'The Forgotten Side of Ourselves'. The publishers, with their blurb implying some kind of instruction, changed the title to, 'Neikung'. This I know. I read the manuscript before it was published. I discussed it with Kostas at the time. I really do suggest you go and get a teacher and stop trying to take instruction from the books. You will NEVER gain any insight into the Mo Pai neigong method from them. The information simply isn't in the books. The best thing you can do is move on and forget about it. It's over. Best, Mike

How does death or impotence take you? Or perhaps a lifetime of psychosis wrapped up in a straight jacket within a padded cell? Maybe the drugs the doctors will give you might block out some of the things that will visit you in your dreams. Maybe not. Of course they won't be too bothered. I expect the cell will have some level of sound proofing. To quote Yoda, in response to Luke Skywalker's comments that he isn't afraid, 'You will be. You will be'. N.B. This warning is for the benefit of those who are not so vain or foolish enough to believe it couldn't happen to them.

If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants. Isaac Newton The progress of mankind has been through the sharing of knowledge and insight-wisdom. That does not negate the reality that a level of personal understanding must be gained from experience, but the benefit of having guidance and a method to follow is clear. Why should spiritual teachings and guidance be different to all the other knowledge and wisdom gained over the millennia? If the monks were purely self taught they would never have been monks in the first place. Monks have teachers and follow teachings. That does not say they did not have personal insight, but this came after instruction from teachers within a codified tradition. In other words, they did a Newton. As I've said many times, to each their own. Do what works for you, but do not say others are wrong to do what works for them. Everyone has their own life to lead. Best, Mike

Interesting. Thank you very much for sharing. Best, Mike

For anyone interested you can download the Farmer Burns stuff here: http://rapidshare.de/files/40006835/Lesson..._Burns.pdf.html It includes the exercise stuff from the website mentioned but also the wrestling and self defence material. I uploaded and tested the download just now so you shouldn't have any problems. Just pick the 'free' option. Best, Mike It is very interesting stuff. Anyone interested in real wrestling should check out Alan Pittman's site and his information regarding Riley's gym in Wigan, England. A friend of mine observed one of their people choke out an experienced BJJ guy in a competition in under 30 seconds. The BJJ guy had studied in Brazil with the Machado's and was an experienced MMA fighter. Now, I don't say this to make any claims that it is 'better', just that the old traditional western wrestling is good stuff. Riley's people know the nasty stuff as well, not just the sport. Thank you very much Santiago. It is greatly appreciated. Best, Mike

Mike, With packing of chi in dantien it is practiced in many traditions. I used to do it as well under a taoist teacher by gathering chi from surrounds and circulating around body through daoyin exercises and storing in dantien. Through my time with this teacher, I found my emotions amplified. My meditation was what kept me in check as I was aware of the changes in emotional states. Good for noting in mindfulness practice. Powerful energy work can be hell on the emotions. Over time, I saw past the powerful displays of chi like moving people with 'Shen' (actual dragging of student across floor without touch), paralysing students into seizures with a touch behind the neck, creating a shield at areas to be protected and felt like you were kicking a wall etc. He was very good with what he did. But I also found a teacher who had no capable students. No one could issue. No technique was taught beyond the superficial, his emotions were brash and abrupt and had other emotional states which were unstable in my view. I had the priviledge of meeting two other masters in that year who ascribe to the no packing of chi modal of practice. Both could issue through sinking (chen2) which causes a rising or floating energy of the surround or opponent which puts your energetic center off balance and a touch would make you fall due to yourself being taken 'off center' already. There is no shortage of people teaching this stuff incorrectly. They publish books and make their coin, but I wouldn't want their karma. There is NO substitute for a GOOD teacher with this training. That is morally and technically good. Other traditions can choose to pack chi and is the fundamental part of their practice. It is their choice. You quote John Chang's practice, I happen to have bought the book the earlier stages when I first started energetic work as I was enchanted by the raw power displayed. I was never enchanted personally. One of the reasons I found myself able to let go of the practices from that school and move on. Unfortunately some cannot and some are rather unwisely still chasing this. When I have the time I will write in more detail about some of my experiences on my blog. For me this is my fate, and I have actually tried to avoid this path because it is very hard to do. However, it is to be. For each their own path awaits If says that many die in the process to go from level 3-4. And even in level 1, students are discouraged from touching hands as their power is so raw and cannot be contained and could maim or kill my the energy being unleashed as a reaction. People have died or been seriously injured just doing the level 2 practice. Level one is no stroll in the part either. That said, you need to be at level 2 before your touch will kill. It doesn't maim, it kills. Again, I will go into more on that another time. I do believe that these practices have their place in someone's hands who have a spiritual practice for moral guidance. However, as I said before, the practice is in my opinion not worth doing. Other methods can achieve the same results as chi is all around us. Intention leads. Uprooting someone in another building is possible by sending astral body out and sinking to cause rising in other person then issuing. Happens in no touch issues but many have not felt before. My own feelings are the Mo Pai teachings are ONLY suitable for mountain hermit practitioners. In regards to other methods achieving the same, in some part yes, but on the level you talk about Neigong trumps most. I'm not going to go into why. The real question is "is there a need to do so?" Over my time in practice, I started to see how the greed for this power had blinded me. It was pointless to be able to drag someone across the floor with intention, or condense their energy in their dantien my using "compressing" chi to disable them from disrupting their energy flow etc. I choose to remain mindful of my thoughts, speech and action and use my practice for liberation or healing others. I'm pleased for you, I genuinely am. Seeking power over others to harm or control them is wrong. Myself I was blessed with a teacher who shows remarkable compassion. One saying my current teacher/friend has stuck with me is: "Dhamma and healing are the two best gifts you can give anyone... Healing comes second." My intention to replying to Pranaman if you read from the start is to point him in the right direction. I cannot choose for anyone their choice of practice. That is good, and I respect that. Also, on a moral level we don't differ at all. A teacher I respect very much and is no longer in this realm has once said that, "no matter how much you eat, you can never satisfy another person's hunger." This is to mean that you cannot help another person practice. They have to do their own practice for liberation. He was Ajahn Lee's Disciple if you are familiar with the Thai Forest Tradition. One of my gong fu brothers has studied with high level Thai meditation masters. I have complete respect for them and their attainments. I never said neigong was the only way or path . I take the time to answer each point not to feed an argument but to clarify some thoughts I have on the original question by Pranaman. Splendid, and I have enjoyed reading them. I am sure your experiences serve as a valuable warning to others and I thank you for sharing them. To each their own, I wish you well and enjoy your practice. Absolutely, and my best wishes to you also. PS: I had a look at Master Wang Peisheng's youtube videos. Thank you for it. He teaches genuine Taiji and his issues are clean and refined. Dao Zhen, you have had good fortune to have had his instruction. Many people do not have the chance to study under such a teacher. It is a great regret of mine I never had a chance to meet the man in person. Some of what I have read and been told about him shows what a high level he had attained. His method of Wu taijiquan is a truly wonderful practice. Best, Mike

That is a very good site Jedi 777 references Check out Farmer Burns material...if anyone is REALLY interested PM me. I think the site mentioned before doesn't have all of burns material-the full 12 courses, including the wrestling techniques, but I might be wrong. Burns did breathing exercises and cautioned against excess sex...sound familiar... He could hang by the neck in a hangmans noose for 5 minutes. I'll take that ability over a 300lb bench press . Best, Mike