Slim

PS here is a link to a translation of Qing Xitai's book chapter Longmen pai. It details the Longmen Lineage through the Qing. 

Translation by Fabrizio Pregadio. 

http://www.goldenelixir.com/files/Longmen_Lineage.pdf

I took out the phrase, “head of Mt. Lao Dragon Gate Tradition” all together from the website. I also changed “Master” to “teacher.” It now reads: “In 2015 Taoist teacher Wang Liping provided…” It’s cleaner and clearer, and also truer to how Wang Liping presents himself. I like it. It's a definite improvement.  

Wang Liping is quite uncomfortable being seen as a master. With Thomas Cleary’s translation of Opening the Dragon Gate: The Making of a Modern Taoist Wizard, “wizard” was used instead of “master” because of this. Wang Liping once mentioned that in the old days even the term daoshi was used sparingly. Apparently to be considered a daoshi one has to fully inhabit one’s yuanshen at all times, no easy task.  

I will rewrite Wang Liping’s bio on the website as well. I’ve decided to introduce him the way he introduces himself. He said it’s traditional protocol to intro three previous generations when a Taoist introduces one's lineage. So I will focus on himself and his teachers and steer clear of broad claims. 

FYI, If anyone is interested below is an example of how Wang Liping introduces himself to new students. This was taken from a first retreat with new students several years back:

这次到新加坡给大家讲道教龙门派丹道的一个功夫，和大家互相讨论一下。

I’m not really here to teach you all, but I’m here to, sort of, share my experiences with you about the Taoist Longmen lineage and its practice. 

非常感谢大家能够在百忙之中参加我们这个小的班。

I’m grateful to everyone for taking time off to sign up for this small workshop. 

大家工作都很忙。我们这次大家可能在一起生活十天左右

Everyone’s very busy. We’ll be together for 10 days for this retreat. 

我们会很辛苦。

It’ll be quite tough and challenging. 

因为我说话已经比较随便了，可能说话不大注意，做事不好的，大家可以给我指正一下。

If there’s anything Master Wang says or does that is not appropriate, please excuse him and he welcomes feedback from everyone. 

没讲前呢，我先介绍一下自己。因为第一次新加坡，都是这样到一个地方先介绍一下。我叫王力平，道号叫永生（法号“灵灵子”，字孤独）。

I’ll first introduce myself. My name is Wang Li Ping. His Taoist name is Yong Shen. 

一般道教都报三代师承。

First, he wants to introduce the three lineage before himself as that’s the traditional protocol. 

师爷叫张合道（十六代传人无极道人）

The master’s grandmaster is called Zhang He Dao. 

他是清朝末年的一个道士，他做过清朝宫内的医生。 

He is the master’s grandmaster. He came from the end of the Qing dynasty and he used to work in the emperor’s court. He’s a physician, the emperor’s physician. 

太医是世传的，爷爷爸爸这么世传的。

It’s within a household, basically, within the same family. It’s from generation to generation.

有两个师傅，一个叫王教明（“松灵子”清静道人），一个叫贾教义（十七代传人“阴灵子”清虚道人），

Master Wang has 2 masters; Wang Jiao Ming and Jia Jiao Yi.  

这两个师傅传到我这是三代

So there are three generations from his masters down to Master Wang.

Walker, thanks, I sensed you were airing a more general frustration and didn’t take it personally. 

Kuang Changxiu’s short essay Xiantian qigong is a fun read. It’s been on my coffee table for the last couple months. It’s a great little neidan how-to manual, and one of the few counter examples to the notion that neidan can’t be learnt from books. I wonder if anyone has had success with it. 

In answer to your question about Kuang Changxiu’s relationship with Wang Liping’s lineage, I don’t know. I doubt there is a connection in terms of lineage. Wang often mentions that his lineage is separate from the temple lineages. The people in Wang’s lineage have not “left their families” to become priests or monks. He has lots of admiration for people who have chosen that path, its just not what his lineage does. Also the Mt. Lao connection with Wang Liping’s lineage dates back to the 16th century. Although Wang and his teachers still maintain a physical connection with Mt. Lao, they don’t seem connected with the temple lineages of the place. But again I don’t know. Anyone else know?

I first came across the story of Genghis making all Taoists Dragon Gate in the text Quanzhen qi zi zhuanji. Wang Liping also told the same story, as an explanation for the various Dragon Gate lineages. But I can’t think of a solid historical source. Historian’s do agree that Genghis Khan put Qiu Chuji in charge of Taoism (see Mote’s Imperial China), and that many Taoists came to him to be initiated/ordained. But how many and to what extent I’m not sure. Also it might simply have been under Quanzhen and not Longmen (Monica Esposito gets into this stuff). Now you have me thinking, maybe dragon gate didn’t really start getting traction until the beginning of the Qing with Wang Changyue. I wish I knew my history better. The irony is the advisor for my MA was a specialist on late Song and Yuan Taoism and neidan. 

Done. I changed the wording on the website to "head of the Laoshan Dragon Gate Tradition" (It's what I had originally but my website guy keep telling me "less words!"). I should have realized how it would come across to others, so thanks again for the feedback. 

Also the Dragon Gate is not an organization,

Good point Taoist Texts. Dragon Gate is a lineage. There is a difference between organization/institution and lineage that is so overlooked. I think the issue is the modernization of religion in China. It is being westernized. There is an idea of being apart of an abstract category, like Quanzhen etc, that wasn't emphasized before. A 100 years ago the most important piece of info on your spiritual CV was your first master (even more important than which monastery you belonged to). You were located in a social network through the people you were associated with: your teacher and their teachers before them. 

Wow, I’ve been missing some good discussion over the last few days. Taoist identity is complex and different from here in the West, and therefore lots of fun to talk about and try to figure out. Thanks for bringing up some excellent points Walker. Its helpful to have feedback from you guys (no but).

The main issue I’ve been wrestling with putting together the website and blog is how to present this stuff in a way that will connect with a modern western audience without selling out. As you guys know, Chinese culture is complex and different. Taoist culture is complex and different. How do I present this stuff in a way that makes sense and yet still retains its character, its depth and subtlety? 

Another issue is that as a writer I come from the western academic tradition, which carries its own burden. It can be dense and inaccessible to the outsider. How do I write in a straight up, non-academic vernacular, without drifting into the vague and overgeneralized? 

Over the last two decades I’ve learnt this stuff in a Chinese environment, and therefore I need to translate what I have learnt. However, translation is interpretation. So basically how do I give an interpretation of my experience without doing it injury?

So I did two things: I generalized, and I used words that would make sense for a general western audience. 

I think for the most part it has worked. But Walker you bring up some good points where maybe I have gone too far. 

Let’s look at the issue brought up about Wang Liping as head of the Dragon Gate Tradition. 

I have used the word "tradition" instead of "lineage." Longmen as Dragon Gate is simple, but pai is tricker. Pai is easy to translate, literally it means brach of river, and in usage it means lineage, no problem there. The issue is that in Western culture the idea of lineage is alien. A lot of people don’t know what to do with it. So I went with “tradition” to connect with a western audience. I still think it works: Dragon Gate Tradition has a nice ring to it. But without the word lineage things can become a little muddled. 

Is Wang Liping the leader of all longmen pai people? No. I had the same “beef” when I first came across Wang Liping’s writing in English. I feel your pain. My first Taoist teacher was longmen pai as well, so did that mean that Wang Liping was his head? I remember at the time thinking it was all a little suspect. 

The fault of misrepresentation is wholly my own. Wang Liping has always presented himself as the 18th generation holder of the Lao Shan Longmen Pai (Lao Shan is a mountain in Shandong Province). My sense is for the most part Wang’s students shorten it for ease of use (we’re a pretty easy going bunch). But I can’t speak for everyone, people being people I’m sure ego comes in to it at times. 

Everyone and their dog is Longmen Pai (Here in Vancouver we even have Longmen food delivery 龍門送餐). It’s a historical issue as you guys probably know. Bear with the short lecture. Two events had an impact on later Taoist identity. First, Yuan dynasty: Qiu Chuji wins over support from the Mongolian ruler. The Mongolian ruler says all Taoist stuff is now longmen pai, deal with it. Second, new rulers of Qing setup head of White Cloud Temple, Wang Changyue as patriarch of Quanzhen, having all lineages now coming from him. He is Longmen that means all new lineages from Qing to present are Longmen.

My first version of the site included reference to Lao Shan. But I took it out because I thought it too wordy and too historical. I was planning on doing a blog post about Wang Liping’s lineage to rectify leaving it out. But you’re right it should be in there. And what you said about changing the article from “the” to “a” tradition (or lineage) makes sense too. I’ll give it thought, it’s all a work in progress anyway. 

I used the word “head” for two reasons. First, it works with tradition. Holder works with lineage, which I didn’t want to use. Second, Wang has been given three lineage “commands,” basically giving him full responsibility for the lineage and the command to pass it on. This sets him apart from being just a holder, and I thought head represents that. I can’t remember what the three commands were, if anyone reading this knows let me know. One is to pass it on, becoming a transmitter, but not sure about the other two.

Well I’ll give all of this some thought; maybe a rewrite is in order.

Back to the subject of the thread. Now that more and more Taoist cultivation stuff and neidan is making its way westward, we have an opportunity to get it right. We must be able to transition this stuff in a way that maintains its integrity, that holds onto its essence, without it becoming some bland, generic, shadow of itself. It’s up to our generation to get it right. Thanks for the help.

Nathan

Thanks Tyou40! 

It should be complete. I have the same copy on my hard drive. It's in 36 vols, which is the same as the one published in shanghai in the 60s. It is a facsimile of the woodblock version. Now all we need is a searchable copy, so we can look up stuff right away.  

This is the Dao Zang as transmitted through Yu Qing Huang Lao Pai, which claims heritage from Shang Qing lineage right?

It's the zhengtong daozang. The one put together in the Ming (I believe 1445). 

Interesting video. However, there is Small Frame Yang style per say extant at least in the lineage of Erle and Eli Montaigue (which I am studying from).

That's my sense as well. I know of one other example of yang small frame out in the wild. 

I love the small frame stuff! I practice it a lot in its Wu family incarnation. Really solid stuff. But tough to do. I find I need to be right on the spine all the time, and have a lot of space inside. My main issue is not being able to sink right away. But still lots of fun. 

I do like though what BK says about the different lineages within the styles. Using styles to organize tai chi is fairly new (50s or 60s). Before it was all who your teacher was and his teacher was etc. 

Is there no video of you, Nathan?

No, I'm not as pretty to look at. 

Hi Michael, not Wu style. That's Yang style tai chi. But other than that I don't know anything about it. 

Hi there, I am starting up a tai chi class here in Vancouver (Chinatown).

The class will be offered through the Dragon Gate Institute. 

For more info visit: www.dragongateinstitute.com

Intro to Wu Style Tai Chi

This course introduces students to the traditional tai chi of the Wu family

Students will learn and refine the 108 movements of the round form. The round form is the central practice of Wu style tai chi, and contains all of its essential principles. Through exploring these gentle and relaxing movements students will gain experience with the internal work (neigong) of tai chi, and gain a broader appreciation of tai chi as a vehicle for spiritual cultivation. 

Instructor: Nathan Brine

90min weekly class (Tuesday evening class, May 17 start)

$15 per class (first time payment is for 3 months, after paid monthly (no drop in)

Nathan could you please clarify. Does neidan involve attaining rejuvenation and/ or physical immortality?

Who knows?! 

If it does though that means in 3016, a 1000 years from now, some of us will still be hangin' around on the Tao Bums talking the same old stuff.   

I've noticed the trend as well. It's interesting to watch. In 2015 there were three new books on neidan published in English. 

I think it's fine.

In the last couple centuries in China neidan has been very popular. In the late Qing dynasty in Beijing alone hundreds of books were published on the subject. The language of neidan made its way into popular fiction as well. In the public's mind neidan became seen as the height of Taoist practice. Maybe that trend will happen here in the West as well. Or maybe more people are ready for neidan. 

Like opendao said, finding a good teacher has always been hard, even in China. And I don't think that will change here in the West either. But neidan is also not meant for everybody, especially the higher levels. When people aren't ready for it they won't find it. And that is okay. 

Lifeforce, go for it. She's there if you need her.

As to the topic itself it kind of got me thinking about whether Guanyin is Buddhist or Taoist or local religion etc. 

My sense, based on experience and study, is that Taoists throughout Chinese history were quite happy incorporating the various deities into their practice. The kind of deity is not what really differentiates Taoists from others. It’s more how they approach the divine that matters. The Taoist approach seems to be more self-focused, more self-reliant. 

Back in the 90s when I first got started on the Taoist path, I was with a teacher who was heavily influenced by the Three Teachings movement (Confucian, Buddhist, Taoist). He was a big Guanyin (Kuan Yin) fan, in the school we even had a Guanyin altar.  

He was a Taoist priest yet he also was very comfortable using Buddhist chants and Confucian ceremonies. And more than just paying lip service. Although his first lineage was Taoist he also had been initiated into Confucian and Buddhist lineages. 

During my first training with a Taoist altar I was shown how the various elements on the altar are a reflection of the self. The lamp is the light of our spirit, three cups of water represent the Three Treasures of jing, qi, shen, and fruit represent the internal organs etc. By worshiping at the altar we are focusing on and empowering the self.

This seems to stands in stark contrast to others who worship a deity in order to get something (a common practice in China anyway). 

Kristofer Schipper writes about his experiences with Zhengyi Taoism in the south of Taiwan back in the 60s. He describes how the outer altar of the deity is not the true altar. There is an inner altar, the altar inside the body that is of prime importance. The priest goes inside the body to pay homage to the spirits and energies that make up one’s internal landscape, and that is where the true work is done. 

I think by incorporating the deities, but using them as a means of connecting to the self, Taoists stand apart from other groups.

It might be useful to know what Mr. Wang Liping thinks about the following:

For a modern person who works full time and has various other responsibilities and demands on their time, what would be the most effective practice to focus on for self cultivation purposes? What is the minimum time a person should practice this practice each day to have any reasonable chance of making good progress in self cultivation? 

Hi NotVoid, not quite the question you were asking but I asked Mr. Wang a similar one.

I asked him once about what kind of training schedule I should follow. He answered me, "don't schedule." Keep it natural. Practice when you want. Of course he was answering me personally and I tend towards over-control (I've noticed that he will answer the same question in different ways depending on who's asking). Another time he said don't sit too much, just 5 or 6 hours a day. I guess it really depends on what we want out of the practice. 

I just remembered another one, in an old talk Mr. Wang gave to his students in the late eighties. Someone asked how long they should sit for. Mr. Wang answered sit until it begins to hurt, then keep going for another 2 hours. Sometimes I wish I had taken up golf 

Charles Crawford have a wonderful time (hope I did't scare you off).

Taiji fashuo is such a fun text. I worked on it for my MA thesis.

For tai chi classics translated into English I would recommend Lost T'ai-chi Classics from the Late Ch'ing Dynasty by Douglas Wile. He also translates the Taiji fashuo and a host of others.

And there is so much Taoist and neidan language through out the Taiji fashuo text. It's interesting how much neidan language and methods made their way into the realm of martial arts. 

The origin of the text is also quite mysterious. It wasn't written by Yang Banhou (he didn't have the requisite classical Chinese chops necessary to write it), and no ones really sure who did. It was composed sometime in the later half of the 19th century, and secretly passed down within the Yang and Wu families until it was published in the early eighties in Hong Kong. 

(Edited once for clarity)

Thanks Dawei!

Hi Tech Support,

I double posted a topic by mistake.

Would you be so kind as to delete it for me. It's in upcoming events, posted at 7:58pm: Internal Alchemy Program in Vancouver Spring 2016 (keep the 8:00 as I already deleted the contents in the 7:58 one).

Thanks in advance. 

Hi can someone change my user name to my real life name please?

Nathan Brine

My sense is it's best not to over think the question of celibacy too much. 

I found celibacy to be very helpful for my practice of internal alchemy. But that's me at this time. 

Give it a try. See how it affects one's practice. Pay attention to one's body. Internal alchemy has clear benchmarks: are we able to achieve the same results before and after ejaculation?

I found for myself that the path to celibacy was a natural one. As I began working on certain stages of the alchemical process I just didn't want to ejaculate. 

Also, as a family man I know for me celibacy is not permeant. And I don't think it need be. It's just what works right now. 

IMO if you're going to study TCM you should do it somewhere like Taiwan, or even take up acupuncture in Japan. They haven't been corrupted by the Communists.

Or even Korea; apparently the training for traditional and Western medicine is keep quite separate there as well. 

This really helps me to understand my past experience with tree energy, and why my tree energy healing might have been so harsh, maybe too yang, thanks.

As mentioned above, there is also a difference between practicing with trees at night and during the day.

I only practice at night.

Remember that trees are vibrant beings of light rather than reservoirs to be tapped...

Yes, good point. My teacher mentioned that it's an exchange. We get qi. They get emotion.

I like trees