dawei

I'll consider it... your possibly going to replace me as the most pedantic on Laozi verses...

To be fair... a chieftan would be more representative than Emperor. Emperor is always (I believe) bestowed posthumously. At the time of the tribal wars, there was no central or consolidating leader till the Yellow Emperor defeated the war deity Chi You (leader of the Li tribes) and the neighboring clans wanted to consolidate under him. It was more a voluntary and request for a kind of loose vassal tribe arrangement. In later time Yu the Great would encounter such a request to start the Xia Dynasty and this approach would become common through the Shang until the Qin truly unified the country, however brief. Also see more here: http://thedaobums.com/topic/38022-4-legendary-period-to-xia-3000-%E2%80%93-2200-bc/

Some see the actually energy moving others like light/color moving or they see the organs with the energy surrounding it. I said they are all the same but we compartmentalize them. If someone only works with Qi at a level like Qigong, it doesn't mean much to them to talk about Light... although they are really the same thing they may not have any direct experience with the latter in a way it makes any sense. So these are just different ways of describing different experiences of Energy. I think it is Both/And... Internal and External are another example where we might differentiate them until they are understood or experienced as just the same thing. I think you can describe your particular experience with energy from an internal and external aspect and it seems to get very close to one and the same.

I realized at some point I should not be posting here as I'm not really sticking to a 2 year old thread's point No. Some can see Qi.... so it really begs the question why folks who practice Qigong can't see Qi I do agree that experiencing energy is similar to access to different wavelengths or frequencies... but I've not measured it in a way to give any real understanding in that way. I think there is a disconnect in some language usage... Qi, Shen, Ming, Liang ... are just chinese characters which represent various ways of saying, Energy, Spirit, Destiny, and Light. They are all the same but we can compartmentalize them in the manifest world as to what we have access to... but they are all one and the same: Original and Pure Energy of the Source. Internal cultivation, by whatever means and I mean to include your dream approach, is but a mirror of an external observation of the source light. We can use whatever word fits for our experience.

The oracle bone symbols are a great symbol of the crooked-bodied one struggling to upright itself... and the modern character of an erect body standing in perfect symmetry... fully aware (well... to a relative degree).

Yes, along those lines. There is underlying unity although our experiences tend to interpret it as separation. I think there are levels to perceiving the unity and the final stage may be something like complete identification with the source. Whatever gifts the apostles received at that time was what was received. I am not sure I would use that to compare what everyone after them would receive. For me, because there is underlying unity the issue is not about unity. There is so much stuff in life which simply creates a separation effect and it is the lessening of these which have produce some effect of perceiving and apprehending unity. For some, their experience of it is simply knowing it. The gift thing is to me an individual response (receiving) and different people have have different gifts arise or not. I don't think gifts is a requirement. True but I think we would want different methods instead of just one. Do folks who do Qigong actually see Qi ? Someone might rather call it Shengong (Shen=spirit) but then do they need to see Spirits to use that label? Light is just a higher form of energy than say Qi... so it is just another name to distinguish it. I could just as well say I do energy practices but that is quite broad and vague.

Welcome to TDB Here are the first few words from each original paragraph... you can fill in the missing parts however you wish: What I’m about to write sounds crazy to me,... The way I got this information is a little complicated.... I am one many students who have left our former Theurgic school/cult ... The cult we left is lead by two twin brothers.... Except for with their closer students, ... Anyway, I was a student for 3.5 years,... Once we began speaking out,... A few days ago, ... That’s all I know about it....

There was a day when I would of bet the universe that I would never again be sticking my nose in the good book... and here I am I would not call it a contradiction but a man-made distinction of space-time. They lacked the understanding or perception of their unity and it would take something to pop that bubble to see beyond the local mindset. yes... great point It seems to me our only difference is in realization but in fact some may realize it but it still doesn't produce the effect of unity. I'm not sure the question can be really asked or answered as there is no HS without the Father; so if there is one (father) then there naturally comes the other (HS). The associated gifts is an interesting issue. I see it as he was asking for their eyes to be opened and he was asking the father to grant such sight. I can only equate this to something like light practice whereby one can't perceive it yet but if more light is allowed to shine through (something or someone makes a bigger hole than our perception creates) then we can be not just spiritual united but also can physically experience it. I think our human condition is such that we rely on our senses so much in 'this world' that we have lost our unity-sensitivity to the source. All traditions may be just trying to get our flesh and blood to recognize what it really it... unity with the formless.

I think this is an interesting example to explore your second point. Is the source of the initiation beyond this plane or in this plane? Is the initiation beyond this plane or in this plane? Is the experience beyond this plane or in this plane? These might help in understanding Jesus's comment: I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth. This is sometimes seen in brief as the "in, but not of" statement of Jesus... or, "not of, but sent in". All I am exploring here is whether there is any such boundary between this plane and beyond this plane... and that only once we seem to be able to get beyond any boundary will grasp 'in, but not of' and therefore there is passage across the boundary. Steve said something interesting in another thread about his master saying the mind travels faster than the speed of light and therefore, beyond time. This kind of 'mind-travel' (for lack of a better word) is what I've been trying to understand for some time as that appears to be an experience many people from many walks of life can attest to.

I often keep this last part to the forefront along with the idea that it is unfolding in cycles... so the variation also changes within cycles too. Our local senses make 'sense' of the manifest world by conceptualizing duality. In that way, our conscious mind seems to be able to compartmentalize and organize what we see going on around us. What may be an interesting pursuit is how to explore those areas not under the control (or illusion) of duality.

In my 20+ years of traveling, I still stare out the airplane window in wonderment... and wish I had started taking pictures all those years ago. When I lived in Nebraska for a few years, I was taken away from the clouds out there... I think the change in scenery and slower life style made me really look upwards for the first time

So emotions are like the custodians or guide in the spiritual journey for you. I think for most, this is not their path, but you have a unique path for this. When you say: "My dreams have their own program about what to work on at any point in time, I just go along with them, feeling whatever they want me to feel, sometimes just understanding what they want me to understand. For me dreams are like a personal guru leading the way, and after 30 years of doing this I can honestly say I'm happy with the outcome." I don't know that anyone can really offer a similar path. In a way, this is a journal on some level. I know of your journey but it is a never ending fascination to hear it

I generally agree in the sense that frequency distribution is useful to know what is important... and we have to weed out certain parts of grammar as necessary but meaningless.

I had done that in the past but not sure I kept it... but a good source is: http://forum.daoisopen.com/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=13 But neither is Laozi an original title... just anciently common to acribe the work to the author's name. And clearly by the MWD, there are two distinct parts. The Beida version also denotes those two parts as upper and lower. I think there is sufficient understanding that the Heshang Gong version reversed the order with Dao chapters first... and Rudolf Wagner has shown rather convincingly that Wang Bi's version is mostly taken from HSG and that there are actual discrepancies between WB's notes and his received version. In most cases where they differ, the HSG version appears to have been relied on. SO one thing seems more certain and that is, we didn't really get what Wang Bi's version to the extent his notes show his deepest thoughts.

http://www.sino-platonic.org/complete/spp020_tao_te_ching_translation.pdf [The] File [on the Cosmic] Track [and Individual] Dough[tiness]: Introduction and Notes for a Translation of the Ma-wang-tui Manuscripts of the Lao Tzu [Old Master]

Well then, tell the masses... and let's see how practical the advice is. If nobody really embraces it, you ultimately have to ask why... it is a probe into the human psyche but it is rather a simple exploration.

We're all sitting in our own garden... so to speak

Laozi said form comes from the formless... and stops there. So where does the formless come from? Where does Dao come from?

IMO, there really is no option for most.

I think we have generally agreed to this understand and Way. I like efficacy for a long time. The only issue I have is that as I go beyond the manifest realm of 'things', these terms get blurred... into one whole... and when I return to this realm, I can simply talk of them as separate but I smile as they are not separate.

One of the better post questions... and discussed over the years. Even recently our resident Daoist Shaman was talking about this misunderstanding. Although I have my opinion, his recent post causes me to ponder further. So I will ask him to comment here. Here is the thread I reference: http://thedaobums.com/topic/39508-spirit-essence/

Don't forget belief in the therapy

We are Ziran Some more than others Yes, that is my point... maybe I was too cryptic along the Way... Very appropriate and profound question... it is a deconstruction of self... It-self-so-ing... replace self with Dao... [it-]Dao-so-ing

Keep googling... on how to stop it...

Thank you... I can use the link http://thedaobums.com/forum/417-ancient-china-pre-xia/