dawei

Tonight's listening... I always thought John Lennon's "Imagine" was profound... till I heard his "Instant Karma" [gonna get you]...

Let's try to move on... these topics always seem to be contentious. Brain has a good point and Drew provided some support for his view. I find Aetherous accusation a bit surprising but I would like the thread to go on...

maybe start by defining the neidan pill and what role that plays.

And for those who don't, what does it mean

my gut feeling is that the weird terminology shift was influenced by Zen's crazy antics and results. Most of these schools are a product of "The Three are One"... and IMO it would be remiss to not think that the three truly did influence. But your point on simplifying terminology is good.. maybe more so for the western audience.

Diamond is just carbon... with a luster. Yes, time, temperature and pressure created the appearance of carbon... as a diamond. Ever wondered why some people are born a psychic or with spiritual insight? I sometimes wonder if that isn't the exception which ought to be the norm... I still think of Baopuzi's comment that practice is not natural. But then, our current state seems much less than 'perfect'...

two quick thoughts to test some of it. 1. Form your hand in a cupping manner and slap the liver area... move outside of it a bit and keep slapping for about a minute... Does it sting? Afterwards, does it vibrate? Finish that with an inner smile to liver... think green. 2. massage your stomach in the direction of digestion working from the start to finish line... slow, deep and push around... see if you feel any pain/discomfort or anything releases... you can do that a few times a day.

I don't think inner is redundant as most associate that to "nei"... But I think your point is all Alchemy is inner in the end... even outer (ingestion of chemicals) is an inner process (?)

So your point is neidan is the object... the end goal... and Alchemy is the process? I play the piano is the object... I push on the piano keys and produce sounds when linked together is the music I intended to make... the process.

I would agree that the dust for some is more like tar and it takes some significant amount of work to get rid of the outer layers.

Energy = Spirit = Light It is not a linear progression but rather what level of refinement one has achieved. remove the dust from that rock and a diamond appears.

Yes. Good point I did catch you mentioning this earlier... and I don't really disagree on a certain level. I've tried to come up with my own 'equation' to reflect this.... something like: Spiritual journey = energy/spirit + mind/clarity I see any tradition as using either one or both sides to some degree. In practice, they are more like stacked on top of each other and connected rather than separated. In the end, they are all the same representation of Spiritual. While there may be varying degrees of physical demonstrations/abilities, the end-game is not about the physical stuff. I agree... many have been able to demonstrate acquired physical abilities... most of the time we see the outer demonstrations but there are also inner ones.

Nothing is something... does that help

I don't doubt him for a second. It means he can burn paper with his bare hands. I think your real question/meaning is, what does it mean/say about his spiritual attainment(?) IMO, one doesn't need spiritual attainment for that. There are lots of great Qigong feats performed without spiritual attainments. Some 'abilities' simply exist in follks. I'm speaking generally. John Chang does follow both an energy + spirit lineage. But that does not mean it becomes the worlds litmus test. It only becomes a test for someone follow that lineage.

~~~ ADMIN WARNING ~~~ This was split off from another topic which even the OP suggested. There can certainly be disagreement and debate but it doesn't need to get so personal... that tends to lead to staff action. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Fair enough... what are you fighting and struggling with? Someone cuts you off in traffic; the bank line is too long; kids won't listen to you; work deals are not working out. ???

Which is to say... as Taomeow points out succinctly, There are 'powers' which develop from cultivating self... even the spirits in the self... To be "in communication with spirits, deities, and immortals" is not a practice... it is a kind of cosmic, re-structure of what anything you do in this physical life seems to mean... and is the spirits coming to you.... visiting you. Seek burning paper all you want... Sometimes I wish I could turn off the visits... but each moment-experience shows me this physical life is not about burning paper... but there are many dimensions to experience.

Here go you I can change the title if something else is more appropriate

Great idea

The academic world is full of wonderful words like this

quick comment. Try to replace disease with dis-ease... what do you now feel?

Or that you scatter paper fragments or burn paper

During my brief interest in Zen, I really liked this work... Given some other thread talk about 'virtue', I thought this was appropriate: http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/zen/fm/fm.htm When you really know the original mind, there is no difference in dying in one place and being born in another – how much less could there be any distinction of sin and virtue there! Thus the body-mind after all does not exist; we are fundamentally free from skin, flesh, bones, and marrow. Therefore his disease disappeared and his original mind appeared. In expounding the essence of the teaching, Sengcan said, "The supreme Way is without difficulty – it is only averse to discrimination." In conclusion he said, "There is no way to talk about it – it is not of the past, future, or present." Really there is no inside or outside, no in between – what would you choose, what reject? You cannot take, you cannot leave. Once you have no hate or love, you are empty and clear. At no time do you lack, nothing is extra. Yet even so, investigate throughly to reach the point of ungraspability, to arrive at the realm of ungraspability. Without becoming nihilistic, not being like wood or stone, you should be able to "strike space and make an echo, tie lightning to make a form." Carefully observe the realm where there are no tracks or traces, yet don't hide there. If you can be like this, even though "that is not the present phenomena, it is not within reach of ear or eye," you should see without hindrance, you should comprehend without deviation. Can we add a discerning word to this story? Essential emptiness has no inside or outside – Sin and virtue leave no traces there. Mind and Buddha are fundamentally thus; The Teaching and Community are clear. (Transmission of Light 129-131 Sengcan)

Sounds like it is time for any SQL error...

I would say there is obvious, surface stuff and not so obvious, below the surface stuff going on here.... surface = conscious, local mind interpretations of the world around us You seem to be getting closer to discovering the below the surface meaning... But the surface seems to fight it now