dawei

B-I-N-G-O Nature itself has constantly re-balanced from its inception... if anyone would just read the archaeological accounts.... what is in the north is now only in the south... past rivers are deserts; past cities are buried in water. Interference is a given.... and necessary part of life. The Way is also a Way of Interference.

I do get this... I hold a 'destiny' orientation; if it is within one's destiny it will be revealed; otherwise, for most, they are probably better to join Planet Fitness and enjoy life as-is. We can't know if we're in our lifetime to experience another level till it hits us... and to be fair to everyone, how can they know it if someone doesn't show them something too ! That is good... good students have an instinct for good teaching... but not all good students result in good teachers. I taught soccer for 20 years... one day, my assistant said, "you teach soccer like Zen"... I said, "what is Zen" ? Some teachers are natural and some acquire what is needed and others just do it because they do it. I get this too. some need to just go through the motions and see what unfolds. This seems to be your focus which I think is admirable and worthy of pursuit Yes and no... hard to explain. transcendent for some... and peppermint mocha for others... that is the spectrum. We don't determine another's destiny; we point a way; we are a guide at times. We can even help them travel. But sometimes, as is said: I only see further because I stand on the shoulder of giants. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_on_the_shoulders_of_giants

which is to say they followed their own "Way" without knowing it. Probably superbly It is a vastly different issue to say whether they have approached an obtaining of Dao as described by LZ and ZZ.

Then let's meet in Chat some some time

Sometimes it takes words to say one is wordless... and other times it is wordy explanation of wordlessness... In any case, I think ZZ would be laughing not at us... but with us...

I think like Rene... I agree... I was only pointing out that conscious vs unconscious is relative and hard to generalize. Should we say this is like "many are called but few are choosen" ? Few see 'the way'; fewer truly reside in it... But we can't discount that some are simply 'happy' or feel fulfilled to the end of their days... and know nothing of dao... or do they?

Exactly... I guess I could just *like* the post and leave it at that, but it is subtle and sinister ! Who is really free? Ah... those who 'see and operate' outside the engineering... I grew up outside of Washington DC... pick up a Post paper any day and the first few pages were all crime... When i went into the military and went to Nebraska (at the time, I wondered if that was even in the US)... and the neighboring winds of Okie from Muskogee are inhaled enough... you almost shutter at the idea of returning east.... but I did... and then headed north for a decade.... and now south for close to that... The prevailing winds are what they are... We just find our destined course and leave such worldly endeavors to their own devices... anyways, that is my feeling.

First I want to say this is a really great thread... so kudos for it A very heavy weight came off... so here goes I think there are some assumptions about the teacher here... have you ever been a teacher of anything? If you taught in any capacity, then you know your doing this more as a destiny-ability (although I've meet my share of teachers/coaches who are just forcing their role of teaching). This is testing the waters... many don't know what they should do... so they try something. Ever tried a Latte ? moving one.. it depends... This topic seems to be more about discipline... and now I understand title... Realize that people occupy a spectrum of 'ready' to 'not-ready'... there is not one 'discipline' to cover everyone... I'll end with this... and I've said it similarly in other threads: Duty vs Discipline vs Destiny Practice vs Path Destiny and Path is all that really matters... but some are not even aware of it.. they are dipping their toe in the water; they are feeling something with a significant other; they are awakened by their cup of Joe... or sunset... or horns in Manhattan... at some point, some simply get a jolt of something beyond life... This is a good thread and I don't want to veer off from the intended topic which seems more about prepared discipline... I've said many times, per Baopuzi: Practice is not natural... so why do we seek it? I accept the spectrum of folks... your poking here along a spectrum with getting them prepared but they are not even aware of what is going on in most cases. So maybe you want to talk to that spectrum of folks who don't know but if they asked... you want to say something to them?

"Melting".... good. Millions would die for this or at least benefit from it. "Armour"... not good. Millions employ this and do detriment from it. I think your local mind is scared of passing over into a realm of connection which is simply happening upon itself. In daoist terms, this is similar to "Ziran" (Tzu-Jan) ; It-self-so'ing... following what is natural. IMO, the level your experience is beyond the mind-body; your energies are having a 'hot chat'...

I'm glad the video was only 10 minutes as I was inclined to watch it but I'd seen enough after even a few minutes. I would say it is techno-political speak for 'brainwashing'. I am with Marblehead... no surprise... seems a duh to me... but in fact, the masses are probably complacent about whether it is going on and true or not. @CT: What is your position?

I don't think we disagree about 'why'... its just that for me, there is a time when this is not enough for real practical application. For ourselves, we can just ignore any concepts and find this 'why' working too... But once we starting interacting with nature, for example, we observe water to understand how Tzujan plays out... and for water, gravity is an important aspect of it. Yu The Great was successful in solving the flooding problems where his father Gun was not because he understood 'why' on a practical level. I've now forgotten the topic so I am probably veering off course added: TT first mentioned this point about Yu : http://thetaobums.com/topic/16623-ttc-study-chapter-8-of-the-tao-teh-ching/?p=600056

It is what they do within the current system... Change to space... we can still say 'what they do is Tzujan' ... so Tzujan is a constant reflection of the system influences.

DDJ38: The man of superior virtue takes no action, but has no ulterior motive to do so. The man of inferior virtue takes action, and has an ulterior motive to do so. - Chan DDJ11; Thirty spokes are united around the hub to make a wheel, But it is on its non-being that the utility of the carriage depends. - Chan

It gets messy when we start using words like 'natural destructive path' but I know the meaning and don't disagree on the point being made... But we have to look at the effect of external influences... when the water on its own will curve out valleys, erode banks, flow downhill, etc... Add in man... now the system and influences imposed on water change... as man tries to harness water to its use. Then add in grown populations, city-states, developments, etc. The sphere wherein water exists changes and is manipulated to other use. In the end, the most efficient use will be to harness water according to the laws of water.

I think the idea of 'interference' often steps on it's own feet... as I would interpret your meaning to suggest that if they are NOT happy, then one should 'interfere' ... which goes against the first part.

I have talked about this in a similar way in the past... that going with dao is similar to a surrender; you don't 'get out of the way' as some have said but you merge as one with what is going on. You mention it with 'conscious will to surrender' and 'unconsciously with the flow of mechanical like forces'.... but there can be unconscious surrender and consciously jumping into the flow of mechanical forces. To me, conscious / unconscious is not important; IMO, it is about listening to the inner voice which can be lead by local/physical signals and universal signals. The more we tune in to the latter the more we are simply with the flow (conscious or not).

I agree up to "no apparent reason"... even an earthquake has a 'reason'... we can look at the 'influences' of the system it self-develops within.

All very true... and I'm glad you took it here And I from Christianity for similar reasons I have pondered why ancient practices seem more simple and modern practices claim such complex ones... It seems to me that the passage of time and the influences on man create some sort of separation requiring more complex practices... Yet some today will find the simple path remains as well.

Excellent point and one I agree with. In the end, each will speak from their interest, depth of research, and direct experience... the less the range the less they can intelligently really speak to a wide variety of topics and will tend to just repeat the same idea in different threads. But we have to remember that each person's path is their own path and their journey is simply what it is... whether broad, informed, diversified or less so. Although the title is somewhat of a broad comparison, the OP was speaking from a specific school. It would of been better to remind folks that this was really more about a school/lineage than a complete definition of comparisons.

Sorry... I was not picking on you... more curious... thread can carry on.

That is true. True. I think this is also true. Question: Why is 'Truth' also not an illusion ?

thanks I'll have to let this sink in with re-reads and maybe ask some questions.

I think it leaves no room for nonTzu-Jan. I think this is code for 'dies'. The bolded part is something I would want to hear some more from you first

We require external influences... that is part of the concept of 'self'... but this is a small point. I agree with Rene that there are some problematic wording... everything is following some 'way' but it may not be their beneficial destined path (borrowed beneficial from Rene ). I get the idea of calling it bad vs good ends... and beneficial... but IMO, as it is a spiritual origin, I would simply say whether something follows its destined path of least resistance.

Have you ever truly experienced or connected to this?