dawei

My personal experience with pressure between the eyebrows is that it gets too intense to continue any practice... and even after you let it go, and stop it... a single thought brings the pressure back. In a very recent connection, the pressure was so strong and painful I just dropped out. It tends to feel like a blockage trying to open... alike blowing up a balloon which will eventually open (explode).

There is great archaeology which speaks to this... so yes... maybe another thread Fly onward

IMO, In the moment(s) of life.... not sure beyond. Not talk of self, heart, awareness, clarity? I think you are just casting an explanation but at least is ok. THis is the fate.destiny aspect I have talked about... Even those who talk are not always prepared That first line is golden... and the second comes close... Now your consolation to those not prepare is to follow the heart. Everything has a goal... so I would not use that as a basis... Many paths have the same end goal. Niedan is just a method/practice/way. difficult and challenging and a path less traveled...

Ah... we're now at talking about "out of Africa" theories being replaced with "out of China" ? Now we're getting to something truly novel and interesting

I asked about a vessel (let's call it a glass container), and when it is full of water. Vessel = Yang Space = full of Water = Yang

What is rise and fall from? Gravity... so you do use gravity Local thinking will rely on local constructs You talk of empty space and less empty (ie: water)... Laozi talked of Empty space vs the vessel/container. ergo... what is the association (space vs vessel) if the vessel is full of water?

Inner alchemy is one of a few paths* to the re-discovery and re-establishment of the real self as a soul/spirit within the One. The methods have varied over several thousands of years so the only way to talk about any particular one is to state which lineage/method/practice is of interest. * Ergo, there are other paths and methods to achieve this but they simply do not fall under inner alchemy.

And I even spent a little time today to see if it was cached somewhere in a table... lets drink to holiday cheer... and guilt

This is in the Group Study sub-forum... but I'd rather see multiple posts instead of none ! http://thetaobums.com/topic/37116-the-way-of-the-golden-elixir-2nd-ed-free-d/ BTW: I spent the last few days moving such / similar posts to the Group Study... if you are aware of some older posts about printed material or discussions on them, pass the links along to me.

see if any of these help or help link to other material: Natural Medicine Journal NCBI The Qigong Institute

The teaching/practices of Mo Pai by John Chang have been much discussed, so there is a lot of history to that here... much of the discussion devolved into the Pit... It is Indonesian method which traces to China... neigong with 72 levels. No reason to apply negative labels to it. Any alchemy or Neigong (or Qigong) does not claim to be scientific and it would be silly to try to force a mutual understanding at this point but some attempts have been made and continue... as they should. If you have another site to learn more or discuss it, it is probably better to do so there than here. Some of the Indonesian students have respectfully asked that their lineage not be discussed here as their is no proper representation. I tend to agree on a certain level but this is a discussion forum and as of yet we do not prohibit it, should the discussion arise.

I have 'enlightened' the title... welcome to TTB

I can't speak to WLP... School differences will always exists, but there must be some individual goal in mind, or specific path or practice. Any one can experience Qi or energy exchange without the LDT activated... but that is the foundational step in most practices so that the body has sufficient Qi to move on to higher level practices. It might be similar to saying, otherwise, your car is running on fumes. What you should understand is 'why the focus' seems to help (or work). It is no one thing... Let's just say, as Ecclesiastes did: 'a cord of three strands is not easily broken'. IT seems an ancient formula, when in doubt, keep the mind on the LDT... in some of the earliest practices, 'deity visualization in the LDT' was performed. My advice is someone should chart out what they want to do, where they want to go with it and find the practices which fit it... and review/revise as you go. In general, the more you try to self-teach the further you can veer off a proper/successful path. I would recommend Yang Jwing-Ming... easy to find cheap, used books at Amazon: Amazon Link The two I would start with are: 1. Qigong for Health & Martial Arts: Exercises and Meditation (Qigong, Health and Healing) 2. The Root of Chinese Qigong: Secrets of Health, Longevity, & Enlightenment I think this gets beyond simple descriptions because the focus (whether LDT or emptiness) is all local at first... it is only occurring in your mind, however successful in getting you where you want. Interesting you mention Emptiness and Divine; so what is one focusing on (rhetorical) In simple terms: If your mind is in one place, it is not scattered or lead astray. One is trying to put their mind 'in its place'. Neidan's "reverse perfection": Do you mean because the order is: Jing > Qi > Shen > Emptiness ?

What is the item or topic(s) you read which are not mentioned yet in this thread?

That is an internal practice which is, IMO, fraught with challenges. I think it is doing the deconstruction that Steve talks about but it is the road less traveled... or at least successfully and fully traveled. I think it is not successful for most due to what 3Bob calls the 'matrix' which is something I mention in the Karma thread ( I just didn't call it matrix but it is the same idea). I only differ in that I see something selective going on in the matrix... call it Karma or fate or destiny... not sure what to call it; not from being partial but simply dependent on being 'in tune' , 'in sync' or not. If we're not, it seems to me that the energy/spirit/light simply does not connect/shine... and we simply continue trying to move along. I agree with Steve that on the absolute level, there is nothing to return to... in fact, we're getting recycled effortlessly by the universe. The problem is a relative one (or a local one); it is we are not yet likewise 'effortlessly'.

I see Karma similar to fate/destiny based on the connections it has. I see at least two connection levels: universal/eternal, and internal (which is the closer connection of our past lives experiences). But, ultimately, now it is meted out? I'll go another direction with this and give an example of practices which I think will be unexpected. If one considers the level of their journey, some will dabble in energy work; fewer yet will progress in some internal connections; fewer yet will achieve internal unity; fewer yet will open spiritually; fewer yet will experience other realms; fewer yet will transcend. Reminds of the saying of Jesus, many are called but few are choosen. In this case, what is doing the choosing? I personally do not hold that it is the person choosing to do certain levels; the level chooses you. Why? That is fate/destiny (or maybe karma applies here too). I feel this is the universal, eternal energy/spirit/light which simply is in sync with allowing this or not. If it's not happening, then it may only mean it's not happening in this life time. Another angle. I don't remember if I shared this story before but this was told in my Medical Qigong class... one of the first classes was working on creating a healing Qi ball which is placed into another's body. One makes their own healing ball but one student was a little too fascinated with the idea and over several days (fussy on specifics here) was created this more and more; the master saw what was going on and said the healing ball was manifesting its own intention on some level and had to put a stop to this. But what does that even mean? I would say at least twice in clinical practicing, I experienced something akin to Qi trying to infiltrate me from another... it is possible it is simply like electricity wanting to follow some path it touches. I would guess those with more experience like Ya Mu could relate if this theory even holds water or not but it seems to me that Qi is sometimes like Karma as well. So on some level, I think we're interacting with Karma (as Qi) every minute of every day... it can be repulsive or attractive. When we're really in tune with it, it simply leads us. This is inner knowing; some call it wisdom. IMO, this is the inner energy/spirit/light connection which directs our journey/path/way. Maybe also call it Karma... no sure though...

You mean after reading 20 pages you need someone to clarify it all ? Or you skipped the 20 and want someone to clarity it all? In either case, that may be good to do Qigong is working with energy in general and will provide unity with the mind-heart-body in energy exchange with the universe. Anything energy related is Qigong on some level but it generally is health-benefit related. There are lots of practices and teachers and easily accessible in general. The breath, mind, intention, and energy are the core issues. If you are capable of interacting with all four, then you may be a candidate to try neigong but that is another leap all together. Neigong is working with energy to provide unity with mind-heart-body-energy in spirit exchange with the universe. This is not easily accessible and should only be done under strict supervision of a teacher/master/lineage; all other methods are prone to misleading the mind-heart-body-energy unless a spiritual initiation of some sort is present. Dan is a pot in similar terms; energy is heat. Energy implies an energy center and implies Qi. There are three centers in taoist thought (upper, mid, lower) where energy can be stored up, generated, or a conduit. This does relate to the chakras in correspondence of locations but there are more chakras. A good knowledge of both helps to understand energy and their unity within the body. Dan as other meanings: The most common Dan is the Dan Tian of the lower belly area; often referred to as the Lower Dan Tian (LDT). THis is usually considered of first importance to fill with energy so that the body has a reservoir of Qi which will flow into the 'streams and lakes' (meridians and energy channels). This is a base understanding and there are exceptions but don't feel that Qigong is linear; you can exchange energy without this idea; you can sense it and read it too... but if it is not natural or does not come natural then linear practice helps. Probably the middle Dan Tian is the most important since that is really the end-game for the majority to develop... a few will develop the upper Dan tian and get outside the local body-mind. As a higher level idea... Laozi mentions a red child. This is also an important aspect of the Central Scriptures of Laozi and the 'visualization of gods' practice of early alchemy/neigong. Thus, the Dan has a spiritual connotation which is lost on most.... but your inherently able to find it... should that be your destiny. http://www.goldenelixir.com/jindan/dantian.html http://www.literati-tradition.com/meditative_practice.html http://www.internalartsinternational.com/free/daoist-meditation-lesson-seven-theory-the-three-treasures-and-the-circulation-of-water-and-fire/ http://www.goodreads.com/author_blog_posts/3129933-the-original-stele-of-the-neijing-tu-a-taoist-chart-of-the-human-body

"Fuck" - Zhuangzi

We're probably getting into Marblehead's idea that such things don't appear in LZ's book... only because LZ did not give a definitive 'way' of achieving his materialistic view of being One with Dao... but he did... and with a little help from his friends we can understand it more. This also ties into my point of how The One is not Dao... One can be 'one with Dao' but not 'One with One' ... Dao is the gateway/passage way/The Way; One is the destination. Dao as 'no-thing' is the Way of 'things'; To get to 'no-things' as ONE, one will need go through Dao... and at some point, forget Dao... and now we're getting into Zhuangzi's (ZZ) idea that 道通为一 , Dao is the passage/connection/Way to One. LZ speaks of wu-wei on a practical level to get to Dao; ZZ talks of wu-wu on a spiritual level to get to One. But you want to know... HOW I am sure I'll not answer it that completely but I am just a finger pointing Here is ZZ passage: http://ctext.org/pre-qin-and-han?searchu=%E9%81%93%E9%80%9A%E4%B8%BA%E4%B8%80 You want to be eternal? Then let's just look at the first line of DDJ1: If Dao is not Dao'ed then it is not the eternal Dao... So you got to be Dao'ing ... but HOW This chapter 52 is using the image of mother/son. I would ask if you have ever seen the experience of a mother and newborn eyes first meeting? Maybe even yourself as a father... In that moment, the child's eyes are a passage/connection to the eternal aspect of One. The 'Way of connecting' is not even conscious or present and so we experience 道通为一. Dao is the middle man... brokering your spirit and soul Chapter 16 talks in loose terms of taming the nature into quietude and thus accord with Dao... This is but an outcome, not a path or way. But mile makers count for something. Chapter 39 points out that there is an 'inherent' aspect; it resides within the Ten Thousand. It is there, one just needs to let it connect... HOW... I'll say this for now: There is more than one level to all of this: 1. You inherently are eternal. You have a past and you'll have a future. Nothing to do. The egoist Yang Chu or the ethical Confucius or the legalist Hanfeizi would probably all agree... and would only look to what you do in this life as important for this life. 2. Your awareness/clarity/connection to eternity is obscured by life.... ergo, the local conditions you experience obscure... Call this 'local'. Let go of the 'local', it is acquired. HOW? Some can just do it. Others will seek out practices. The goal is to get back that newborn eyes, unveiled. HOW? The answer in inherent and within. Follow it. If you can't follow it (or hear it), then seek out a practice...

Yes... let's discuss it As you have mentioned 'code words' in the past... here, IMO, they represent: Mother as the beginning = Dao Son = Ten thousand things Ch.4: talks of Dao as the ancestor to the Ten Thousand and then questions whether Dao is 'son' to anything else? Ch. 16: (partial) Being in accord with Nature, he is in accord with Tao; Being in accord with Tao, he is eternal, And his whole life is preserved from harm. -- Yutang Ch. 39 In the ancient beginning, all things came from the one. That’s why the sky is whole and mysteriously distinct. The Earth is whole and firm. Within it, the spirit is whole and strong. The valley is whole and full. The Ten Thousand Things are whole and living. All these things are in wholeness with the Dao. The distinct fullness of the sky maintains the Earth. The wholeness and firmness of the Earth, nourishes the Ten Thousand Things. When the spirit is strong, so all will be maintained. Thus the Ten Thousand Things may reproduce and prevent their breed from dying. Therefore being nourished by the great Dao, the Ten Thousand Things are raised. For the Dao is humble in its greatness. In being at one with the Dao, the Ten Thousand Things are also humble in their greatness, and so they return to it. When man is not humble, the Dao is not great. and so catastrophe will follow. For man assumes he is greater than the Dao. Therefore be humble; do not seek wealth and riches, do not clatter like glass chimes, be at one with the Dao, then you can be truly great. -- Flowing Hands In short, the Ten thousand are inseparable from Dao. Know your source and be whole and strong...

Yes, that link to see the character in question. He is talking in rhetorical frustration that people post the GD with the modern characters. The meaning is that he wants to study the GD but he wants the original... ergo, that's why the bamboo slips are better to use. The current topic of discussion is still the GD version. All GD Bamboo slips here: http://www.daoisopen.com/GuodianLaozi.html

Since post #16, Dusty raised the question of the Guodian and the last 45 posts were focused on the Guodian text. Yes... so Dusty, myself, and TT are looking at the Guodian slips. Feel free to use the link and arrive at the character you see.

That is not the character in question. That's why someone asked for the GD link. You have to look at the GD strips. Dusty has been calling it: 辶兌 TT says it means to speak. 說 / 说

HSG said the 'doors' are the eyes and the 'gate' is the mouth... Moss says in his notes: The second part of the stanza is a reprise of the theme of keeping the people from knowledge. Following Heshang gong, the word dui, “interaction,” is usually taken to mean the eyes (or by extension, the senses), which receive the outside world; the gates and doors are the mouth, and perhaps hearing as well. These lines may also refer to wider commercial and political intercourse. In the Huainanzi, sealing in is related to yin, opening out to yang.

GD, Ch. 52: Link