dawei

I think this thread title says it for me: Origin and Return Qi highly refined is spirit... and it is all spirit in the end...

I wasn't really trying to do a comparison but rather see if some sort of baseline was out there. I agree with the general point. Maybe presidential posturing but I would agree that it is not completely honest.. but it was american on some level. I don't like to call out specific people too much as it is much more widespread than a few. I think there is an ideological fault at work; that deterrence is best shown through might and force.

That might be an interesting discussion with the only consistent outcome is consistent disagreements

As opposed to some united countries like? I would be interested to see the examples you think are 'working'... at least better... and why that might be the case.

was just meant to say that Wagner finds the structure of the chapter not inconsistent with other chapters... He developed this entire analysis on the structure of each chapter to see what patterns emerge. Interesting reading... but his focus is on the Wang Bi version.

Worth a repeat

Wagner in his A Chinese Reading of the Daodejing says, it is an open IPS with staircase structure... similar to Ch. 38. Stuff happens. That it's oddly clear and easy to translate and not in the GD would lead us to remove many chapters... maybe including the much celebrated Chapter 1 But open honesty deserves its say...

Dao endows; De empowers; LING effects the endowment and empowerment between Heaven-Earth. It points to Spirits and the spiritual; Thus, it points to the intercessory aspect between Dao and the manifest world in a spiritual way. The Returned Spirit (Gui Ling) of Traditional Chinese Medicine - Jarrett The etymology of the character for ling reveals its inner meaning. Above we have heaven down from which come clouds with four drops of rain. In the middle we have three mouths, and below, two shaman offering jade and dance to heaven. The image here is of a ritual dance for rain. The notion contained in ling is that, through the appropriate performance of ritual, it is possible to effect changes in heaven. Hence, ling has the associated meanings of spiritual, mysterious, supernatural power or effect, transcendent, and marvelous. Mathews defines ling as "The spirit of a being, which acts upon others. In religious Daoism the ling is the aspect of spirit which, after death, manifests itself in an efficacious manner to protect its descendents. The sages "power" (ling) to awaken the highest in others is derived from her internal alignment with heaven and her establishment of ming. When one is in the presence of another who is exactly where they ought to be it is a transforming experience. The sage, perfectly aligned between heaven and earth, is able to create the context in which spiritual transformation occurs in those receptive to her presence. The Spiritual World of a Hakka Village - Carstens Among the most commonly shared tales are those that demonstrate the miraculous efficacy (ling 靈) of the major protectors of the Pulai community: Guanyin and Maniang, often referred to collectively as Niang Niang (娘娘). My only aim is to make clear that LING is not just a dictionary word as 'efficacy'. It can be translated as such but some background helps to establish the spiritual power being spoken of. (In a similar vein, if someone translates DE 德 as 'efficacy', they will understand the deepest meaning because of their understanding of DE). Today, we just translate and may forget the pictograph to give us that idea of the efficacy of the Shaman calling down the rains; interceding between Heaven-Earth because he is of the same substance of the Spirits. Thus, his power (LING) to do so is better understood. Added: TT translation of LING as numinosity when talking about spirits seems to best to convey the meaning

I am not trying to say that Ling means Shaman; that is the character pictograph. Shaman's were the intercessor between Heaven-Earth... but the other texts show that it is the spirits floating between H-E; within the chest this is called the Sage. So there is established a connection about what the Shaman did/does and it really relates to the Spirits (Shen); they are of the same substance. It is in this light that we need to understand what LING means when used in relation to SHEN. And it shows another tie to LZ in regards to spirit (SHEN, LING).

Very reminiscent of the Tai Yi Sheng Shui, the oldest cosmology... so that would be good text to know. While LZ simply says in CH. 51 that Dao produces and De nourishes, Wenzi shows the cosmology and DaoDe of 51 are a result of the spirits (carried out by spirits). There are many ancient texts saying the same thing but one example is the Book of Rites says "The mountains, forests, rivers, valleys, and hills which can send out cloud, make wind and rain and cause to appear strange phenomena are called spirits (Shen). -- Puett This is reminscent of Zhuangzi talking of Zhen Ren or Xian Ren. The Neiye, Inner Cultivation, says: Floating Between Heaven and Earth is what we call spirits and ghosts; stored within one's chest we call it a Sage". Puett remarks himself, "Human sages , in other words, contain within themselves the same substance found in spirits. " Who was the Heaven-Earth intercessor? The Shaman. So we have the spirits and ghosts floating between and the Shaman as the intercessor. The shaman was a sage who possess the same substance as the spirits. Ancient texts which mention Qi relate how there is a spirit which resides within each person and the basic goal is to give it a calm residence; to keep the spirit within. This is sometimes described as self-divination but this is to be understood as much more ancient than later religious arisings. Spiritual understanding was well established before religions. I will say that I like DustyBeijing's version which suggests "unite their [ ] with". Nice alternative idea... but it seems to fall apart at this... 與鬼神合靈 Together | Ghosts | Spirits | Unite | LING Ling - 靈 - Picture of a Shaman calling down the rains The Ling Shu states: "The jing qi of yang is called shen; the jing qi of yin is called ling. LZ said in 39: 神得一以靈 - Through possession of the One, the gods were spiritualized, - Lin Yutang - The Spirit by Unity has become spiritual; - Chu Ta-Kao - Gods realized primal unity and so came to spirit. - Hinton IMO, Wenzi is saying the same thing as LZ 39 only in a different way. 不下堂而行四海，[變易習俗]- Does not go into the hall yet travels the four seas. [goes with next section] I prefer 堂 as its often simple rendering, "Hall", where one welcomed their visitors. It is one of two places important in the house, along with the kitchen. Heshang Gong on commenting on LZ 27:1 (a good traveler leave no tracks) uses 不下堂 to say: The good traveler of the Way seeks himself; He does not go down to the hall or out the gate; he leaves no track. 3. 變易習俗, 民化遷善，若生諸己，能以神化者也 - You become different with changes in customs/traditions. The people transform along to Betterment. One births a spiritual self. I don't like 'convert' the people; 'Educate sits better but feels too Confucian; I think one needs to tie in the previous few characters which point out that one needs to change with [changing] customs/traditions; Wenzi says elsewhere that the day changes and there is something better which results. The similarity in the lines tells me that 遷善 is not simply really about human virtue.

I'm a little confused why this has now lead to describing western ideas of a transcendent, creative god comparisons... We're talking about 'god' as a word used in daoism, not western religions. They are quite different than a Creator in the first place. Only Dao comes close; as does The One. Where does god(s) come from in the eastern [Taoist] sense? (feel free to replace god with spirits or ghosts as all three have the same origin)

Heshang Gong appears to take Di (帝) as short version of Tian Di (天帝). That is not unreasonable given that Di (帝) was prior to that short for Shang Di (上帝). And LZ wrote prior to Han... so I don't take it as 'ruler' here.

The translations I have seen of this word, of course in context, seem to be: - the spiritual and numinous - the spirits and the illuminated - the spirits and Luminaries One very interesting approach is they are opposites and thus serve as a Yin-Yang archtype... There is good support for this but again... in context.

I will periodically update the first post with resource or reference material. The source text used by TT is: Wenzi Text Link CTEXT does not have all the chapters.

But it seems that most replies are trying to say (I don't really mean to speak for others but this is my impression) she is playing the spokesperson for the very thing she is talking against. Her 1 year method is a "being positive trend"... to "strive for the perception of positiveness"... doing something for 1 year straight is a kind of 'anesthetic'. So I would say that for all her attempts to appear 'positive', most of us see her 'negative'. Now... I am not saying that her 1 year challenge would not be successful for some... but she does not seem to be aware of how she appears to be in the same playground as what she speaks against.

~~~ THREAD CLEANUP: No need to troll it. Moved to Pit ~~~

Interesting... a different statistic (or related data) I see in my work has to do with traffic accidents... But the hotness mentioned had to deal with a very blustery first two months. This past Dec. 2013-Feb. 2014 was vicious weather for accidents. About 16% increase compared to last year, same months, but the majority all came from northern states. Several I talked to said it was one of harshest they could remember... This link allows one to change Year and Month: http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/sotc/national/2014/2

This is really interesting to read and so many overlaps to LZ chapters and themes. Based on some discussion elsewhere on Ch. 18 and 19, Wisdom and Sageliness: Wenzi above on LZ 19: [stop sage-hood, reject wisdom - people benefit hundredfold]. Wenzi explained above: They nourish wisdom in quiescence, join spirits in equanimity, achieve the limitless, follow Heaven and travel Dao; but following people means joining the mundane. Paul Van Els translates a section of 3 九守 Jiushou The nine observances: Wenzi asked about sageliness and wisdom. Laozi answered: “To hear something and recognize it is sageliness. To see something and recognize it is wisdom. The sagely man constantly hears of where fortune and misfortune appear and adjusts his way accordingly. The wise man constantly sees fortune and misfortune taking shape and adjusts his conduct accordingly. The sagely man recognizes the good and ill portents of the Dao of Heaven and therefore knows where fortune and misfortune appear. The wise man foresees their taking shape and therefore knows the gate to fortune or misfortune. To hear what has not yet appeared is sageliness. To foresee something taking shape is wisdom. Those who lack both hearing and sight are stupid and confused.”

Although this was about chinese (eastern) quest and modern society has only brought the tools to effect it; the pressures for it are quite historical... and sadly to add: Good looks can make good money in that part of the world for people who are desperate enough to sell a kidney for an iPad...

Except he is saying to throw away both of these; not one to enhance the other. Which to me means: It is not Knowledge, Wisdom, Sageliness itself the problem... but how they arise and manifest and are used. In our manifest, dualist world, these things exist/arise. The idea of 'exchanging one thing for another' seems spoken against by LZ. In proper awareness of duality, one can never get rid of 'bad'; that would be an imbalance. This is a moralistic approach of religions and even Confucius. So what to do? Origin and Return... Let them flow back to their source, Unity. Let good and bad both meld into a state of true knowledge or wisdom or Sageliness (which by the way would not be a distinction as they would all be One). Consider CH. 19 in relation to the previous, 18: When the great Tao is lost, spring forth benevolence and righteousness. When wisdom and sagacity arise, there are great hypocrites. When family relations are no longer harmonious, we have filial children and devoted parents. When a nation is in confusion and disorder, patriots are recognized. Where Tao is, equilibrium is. When Tao is lost, out come all the differences of things. -- Chu Ta-Kau So, IMO, CH. 19 is really explaining this last line of CH. 18... Follow Tao and not the manifestations of Wisdom, Knowledge, Sagliness...

IMO, Yes...and HSG seems to follow that as well.

And exactly an argument some might use to say why they like to go back to the GD and MWD to see what the characters were... the received version is a swiss cheese version, IMO. Wagner clearly demonstrated that Wang Bi's notes don't even agree with many sections of his supposed version... so someone tampered with the received as well... to suit their ends... but what he demonstrated was that it was a reversion to the HSG version in most cases.

Yes, I agree that 服 seems to not be the original. Henrick's "early submit" is based on 早服 , although his translation uses 早備. The first pair below does not have 備 in line 2 in the GD but most feel it is the same character as the next line pair reads. I also tend to feel he follows Han Feizi a little bit (early submit vs submit from the start); Hendricks provides on comments on whether it should read "Prepare early" 早備 or "early submit" 早服, and in the end feels that "the characters were pronounced almost the same in antiquity"... so they could be a phonetic loan, as this is apparently the case in other Guodian texts (he names a few). 紿人事天莫若嗇 夫唯嗇是以早[備] 早備是胃重積惪

The Beida text also has 服; The Wang Bi has it in ch. 34, 53, 59, 80. It looks like Han Feizi uses the character too but his interpretation is to mean the Sage conserves his essence and so 'submits [to Dao] from the start'. This is interesting, 穫 / 获 , but I see Wang Bi never uses it. Another possible one I found is 備 / 备 , [ Link ] but Wang Bi never uses it. This has another war connotation instead of harvest.

I'm glad you brought this up... This work was previously barred from download but it was stated as expiring... seems it is now available. Thanks.