dawei

I have asked Taoist Text (TT) to do the translations for each chapter/section. We'll do this similar to the Tao Te Ching section where each chapter can be a thread and people can discuss it. If people show an interest to discuss it, then we'll know we're in the right direction and will continue to do more chapters.

You don't wait if your resourceful... chinese have been going without credit for quite a long time to buy a house or business location. From what I gather, it is more often a 'group' purchase; some might think it is akin to investors lending you money. But as in many things east vs west, it would never work here as we don't have the social and familial structure to encourage it. In the end, one would have to evaluate if civilization was better or not... and that seems a arguable outcome too. In this light, it seems we get the civilization we built from the ground up...

I don't think there is any chance for world peace. But if one were to get the world to embrace either Christianity or Buddhism, which would be more likely of world peace? In this regard, I think one could not compare the two as the former would certainly fail at world peace but I think the latter would stand a chance. Let China sleep, for when she wakes she will shake the world.” —Napoleon Bonaparte

Yes... there is a sense of clarity to expose that even what we think are our 'best efforts' can act in an opposing nature. I am not sure why, but this guy came to my mind regarding it... http://www.challies.com/articles/the-false-teachers-norman-vincent-peale

~~~ ADMIN MESSAGE ~~~ You were warned last time about wanting to get in one more last word of disdain to staff. And here you do it again. A staff message in a thread is not looking for any further discussion on the matter, but stop what is going on. You continue to ignore this. Let this go back to topic. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I think you missed the point... peace is easily achievable by the masses... But you raise a good point: why is there misery and suffering?

I get this angst... you feel the Off-topic is the only place to post because the PIT is not a post area ? And if you post in General Discussion it gets moved to Off-topic or PIT and so... you save the staff some action I think you know I personally like your posts... and that may be not the norm... but I would like there to be an area where you feel you can freely post... If it is in Off-topic then why complain. I have already said to post in General but you gave your own personal feelings about it.... but that doesn't change the fact that you can post in General...

You tasted modern dough... and didn't like it... the ancient dough is not easily found or tasted... but that is a part of destiny, IMO. I would just accept that the world is always much bigger than we envision.

Are you familiar with: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinegar_tasters The Vinegar Tasters (三酸圖, three sours; 嘗醋翁, vinegar tasting old-men; 嘗醋圖, 尝醋图), is a traditional subject in Chinese religious painting. The allegorical composition depicts the three founders of China's major religious and philosophical traditions:Confucianism, Buddhism, and Taoism. The three men are dipping their fingers in a vat of vinegar and tasting it; one man reacts with a sour expression, one reacts with a bitter expression, and one reacts with a sweet expression. The three men are Confucius, Buddha, and Laozi, respectively. Each man's expression represents the predominant attitude of his religion: Confucianism saw life as sour, in need of rules to correct the degeneration of people; Buddhism saw life as bitter, dominated by pain and suffering; and Taoism saw life as fundamentally good in its natural state. Another interpretation of the painting is that, since the three men are gathered around one vat of vinegar, the "three teachings" are one. --- Or course we can delve deep into the different paths but the destination was similar. Your asking about their separate paths, which seems an interesting point. My first answer is: Confucianism: Looked to the past rules, rites, established ways of the past. Think the Three Sovereigns and Five Emperors; The Zhou Rites; Daoism: Looked to the past Sages... ancient ones who obtained the Dao... these ancient ones are starkly different than Confucian thought of Sage-Kings who possessed virtue; For LZ and those in the tradition, these rulers were DAO-Kings. In my thinking, this is the difference: For Confucius, the Sage is represented as king.... For LZ, a sage is represented as DAO. The counter comment will be that LZ often talks of instructing a ruler as if he is a sage.. there you go

Nothing is left

I want to be careful in my statement, but it is hard to do so: There is no such thing as " Philosophical Taoism". This is a construct for the mind to justify one's understanding of their existence. You are free to eat the bread but not eat the crust... how can you then talk about the bread?

Just look at the spelling of their names!!! OF COURSE they are not westerners... You just don't understand your angst in westerners posting... but that is part of the reason why you should stay here...

To be honest, you can 'feel' it in her eyes... I was trying to really hold back the energy feeling of her video... I like her message but there is a strong vibe which comes through... thanks

Hendricks shows this... and your translation is exactly the same as Dustybeiing... What do you want to say? Maybe try 治... this is the most accepted substitute among WESTERN AND EASTERN SINOLOGIST... The first is exactly as dustybeijing wrote... The second is english nonsense. Please research more. So that means either the word or translation is wrong. HENRICKS: Establish order before it turns into chaos NATIVE SCHOLAR: Keep order before disorder sets in

~~~ ADMIN MESSAGE ~~~ This is not about any consensus or knowledge of native scholars. This is a community discussing their own understanding, study, and research. DO we really need the 'Westerners don't know shit' message again and again??? I would of thought your time off would of given you a chance to figure out how to stay here... but I see I may of been wrong. This is a forum of personal interpretations. But you want everyone to accept your interpretation of native scholars. There is not much more time for elitist post on such issues... You have been given much more time than others. Do you even know why??? ~~~~~~~~~

I think she is spot-on for the most part... but I get a small feeling that she is a little too much of an isolationist... she isolates an issue in a clea way, but seems to forget that the average person is the one we're talking about. So I am not sure if she is really isolated to those who are trying to connect to religion or spirituality... many common folks are not. Her examples of working through it are all western... so that is her audience... Maybe she has not thought much about the other side of the world... where you have experience in living. I think she would be a fascinating person to talk to but not be involved with... she has an energy of resistance on some level.

Realize both the belly and the eyes have an appetite. The former has a natural limitation but the latter is not easily satisfied. Keep to natural limits instead of limitless pursuits.

It may also show the movement of applying the LZ into different life situations; legalist thought would become quite popular for doing this with the LZ.

Interesting take Lok Sang Ho's translation notes: In the original, one word 嗇was used to describe the example to follow. Unfortunately, in modern usage the word is always associated with吝嗇, which means being stingy and frugal. This more common usage of the word does not, however, fit in with the rest of the chapter, and it is doubtful whether Laozi is preaching at all the virtues of frugality here. On the other hand, the more ancient usage of the word 嗇is farmer. The meaning then is very clear. Moss Roberts wrote in his translation: The interpretation of this stanza depends on the word se in line 3, “having in store.” Se means “reserving grain” but has usually been read as a metaphor for political control based on discipline over one's mental and physical powers. This has been the prevailing interpretation in both Chinese commentaries and English translations. Following Wang Bi's comment, however, Yin Zhenhuan develops the idea that se refers to giving priority to agriculture. The reference in line 13 to the fruitful earth supports Yin's interpretation. Su Che does not follow Wang Bi's agricultural explanation and suggests that the qualities described in lines 14–17 of the previous stanza are instances of “having in store.” In line 1 theword “heaven” (tian) is often interpreted naturalistically, as it is in the Zhuangzi. This stanza is in the Guodian text, where line 1 has “provide” (ji) rather than “rule” (zhi). “Provide” supports the interpretation of se (restraint) as se in the sense of “gathering in the harvest”—over the interpretation of Han Feizi, who reads se as garnering or conserving (the leader's) virtue or spiritual powers. The present translation, however, keeps to the received wording because of the surrounding stanzas, which contain advice to those in power. Hanfeizi (probably the earliest commentator on LZ), wrote a long commentary on this chapter and focuses on sparing/saving/conserving in order to not exhaust one's Spirit or virtues. He uses the body (not farming) as a metaphor for the state: One cannot maintain their body by exhausting it; one maintains it by conserving its essence. In the same manner, a ruler is "maintaining the mother of the state" ; This mother is the WAY. Heshang Gong appears to follow the idea of forbearance. To order a country, one needs to be sparing or hold back your vitality and not squander it. Wang Bi took the idea of forbearance and used the metaphor of a farmer...

Good explanation. The trick is that the most common 'words' may not even convey the 'meaning', and that is part of the appreciate in even looking at different translations; what it represented to them. In context, a chinese character can carry too many possible meanings. I once said that chinese language is similar to 'fill in the blanks' game. The problem is that this can lead to lots of guessing on some level. It seems we understand what he meant by dark womb but would not of chosen that picture; and that is another facet to choosing a word, it may also offer a picture meaning.

~~~ ADMIN MESSAGE ~~~ Thread cleanup... Let's stay on topic or let it die Added: The removed posts are in the PIT ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yes, your patterns and reactions will continue... but what made you aware of so-called patterns and reactions? This doesn't happen on its own ... very good point... but why not? If one becomes aware, what happens? There seems to be a separation which occurs... Even the DL found that separation exists in his upbringing... if he is not exempt from it, then how can we be!? Paths vary. We can easily judge many of them... If your still alive then suspend evaluation to the end... I feel this is your current judgement/evaluation... but I think you were really centered at that time... You may of struggled with the idea of "self" but you seemed to follow the flow of life. The concept should not be a dog to chase... Your right in the surprise is meant for someone to question their life... which you did... Take this in an easy way... but your simply trying/seeking too hard to find your 'self'... each look seems to not be enough... Your seeking and looking too hard... due to past issues... but it is right there within you. But I understand your point: "WHAT CAN I DO" ; emphasize on "I" Your seeking an understanding of your part of existence... I'll confess a bit here... you mention being a "self-cultivator". I never heard this word for a long time but later realized that many used such terms. Now I think I understand the meaning... and I would admit I am a self-cultivator. WHY? I only seek to find my destiny. To me, that is to be a self-cultivator... but others may apply the word differently. By Chance? NO.... this is destiny talking to us... it only depends on whether we are listening.

In a word: Brilliant ! On a personal note... I participate in some training of law enforcement on traffic safety issues... but a distant relative is in a company for athletes to increase their 'toughness IQ'... I told him point-blank: You need to do this with law enforcement as they seem incapable to comprehend 'safety' on some level... trigger-happy means fist-happy... and this seems lost on them.

I do applaud your seeking a translated meaning... and the first line is really a great swing as you ignore trying to use 'valley spirit' in any manner which I can greatly appreciate. But I personally don't like 'gorge' as I am confident the female aspect is intended; that which is the origin of life is female and immortality means nothing if you cannot be born in the first place. 玄 for me means origin, not mystery... 'Root' is ok if one can see it ties to origin... which I think is support for my previous point. 不勤 - inexhaustible ; Its use is never exhausted

I personally have always had a problem with 'valley spirit' and was easily convinced by others earlier in this thread that Valley is not the real meaning... Interesting point Gu Shen is also in Liezi and Baopuzi... have you see these? I can send this as needed. Yes, this is true... I have often argued that 玄 is better understood as 'origin'... origins are a mystery but for some reason, 'mystery' has been the accepted translation in most cases. ​Brilliant find... This makes me think of the Central Scripture of Laozi...