dawei

This is exceedingly clever... and I would say historically supported. There was a decided shift in seeking a new basis for political/rulership authority. What started as Sifeng 四方 to mean four [barbarian] directions from the central plains rule gave way to a re-interpretation as the five phases 五行... and eventually this became a basis for political and military legitimacy. Exactly what 'state' ? This makes me think of the evolution that came from the re-interpretions mentioned above... which became: Heaven, Earth, Man.

Or maybe... Laozi believed in Di being an intermediate part of creation

Ah... you should read Heavenly Questions by the basically contemporary Chu poet, Qu Yuan... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavenly_Questions http://www.cjvlang.com/Pfloyd/quyuan.html http://www.astronomy2012.org/dct/attach/Y2xiOmNsYjpwZGY6MjcyOTg= I don't see how Nuwa is after the GD... She and Fuxi represent the tribal maybe paleolithic settlement beginnings. Chu was considered a 'barbarian' state, for the northern areas... I take it as their shamanism and spiritual aspects made others quite uncomfortable.

This guy's translation focuses on Heshang Gong's commentary... so HSG sees this as hidden understanding... but it may be a bit clever to consider how the hidden aspect occurs. I think there is fluidity in how to recognize...

CH. 15 - Bertschinger Of old the best masters of the Path were subtle in their ways and hid their understanding. They were profound and could not be recognized. Because they could not be recognized, all we can do is describe their appearance. Wary as fording streams in winter; alert as fearing attack from any side; courteous as visiting guests; yielding like ice about to melt; genuine as an uncarved block of wood; broad in view as a valley; unrefined like muddied water. Who can wait quietly and still while the mud slowly settles? Who can be motionless long enough, until slowly they come to life? Those who kept to this Path never desired fullness. Never desiring fullness, they could be worn out and made anew.

In an nutshell: The outer is only as strong as the inner... Focus and developer the inner; be aware of the outer. Such awareness in practice is really intent. There are practices for this but the best way involves pairs and groups practices. If you're just practicing with yourself, get outside of yourself if you want to develop Wei Qi... JMO.

yes... but at some point one really just align that to 'man'... Is man indifferent in the same way or in their species way?

I think this is the balanced view... each eye/heart/mind interprets and interacts and makes sense in their own way... My lack of pain is not really an indication of your inability to experience my lack of pain. As an aside, I think the idea of Daoism/Laozi is that we can find a common interpretation/interaction/sense at some point... and this is still just the physical level dipping a toe in the spiritual level... Yea... this is an interesting thought in terms of how much does one offer to another... As I take a much more 'destiny' oriented view, my feeling is that we can only nudge people along their path; their path is their path in the end. Considering this was visiting Trappist monks... there is alot 'said' here

I have never quite understood the idea that Nature is cruel... we can explain it with science if need be... but rain or shine, earthquake or tornado, these are circumstances/pressures which unfold accordingly. I find nothing cruel in the unfolding of nature. Then there is man... the cruelty of man? Now that is a topic replete with historical and despicable and atrocious examples... man is the poster child and bane of existence in terms of cruelty. Maybe we like to pat ourselves on the back because, unlike animals, we stopped hunting and eating those who roam the world around us.... Except that we have corporations to do the mass slaughter, processing and packaging of the meat... That was my world view for a while... nature is not cruel... only humans are cruel... due to willful intent to act against the natural flow... Then I realized this was the thought of one little person... claiming to define and assign cruelty as I saw fit. How could I be the prognosticator of life... a mere unfolding gavelling a verdict on the unfolding. Then I thought, maybe this gavelling is what sin is? What we see, experience and observe is the unfolding; arising and returning according to the nature... And for some, today, they will go see a movie, some will go to the supermarket, some will rob a bank, some will kill a family member or themself, some will just try to sit and forget... nature has as many options today... what are the circumstances and pressures which will erupt

I would travel to the other side of the world... as that was my destiny later, I would of liked to see how I absorbed it all earlier in life. Whatever shape or size you think exists... is but a figment of our imagination... it is all so much bigger than we'll ever think. Realize that 'practice is not natural' on a certain level. It should come from an inner drive or desire or destiny that this is where your heading. If your just interested and want to try things out, then you are just exploring life. I think there is [rightly so] a fascination with Tai Chi and anyone so moved should explore it... but true mastery and understanding is for the long haul... and most will never really get there... but if you can appreciate what it offers you, then try it. Qigong... results and experience is generally faster and in our faster paced life this might be more appealing... it also lends itself to deeper energy work and practices as it is the foundation. But this can be harder to find proper teaching or even a class... if you're lucky enough to have something available, then you should definitely try it... it is akin to traveling to the other side of the world

Great job for giving some more space to discussing this sub-section I am glad you point out the nuance of translating Xin (心) and Yi (意). I lean toward: Xin = heart-mind Yi = intention But it should reflect Confucian thought...

I would agree that you are much closer! I would say it is Heaven's awareness of man's heart... in much the same way we are aware of the heaven's actions (and influences on our bodies). There are some who think this is basically the oldest representation... An eye from above which sees all the roads traveled. It is interesting that the Chu Script replaces the impersonal road with the human heart... Then all three come together in othe scripts.

I hate to see these kinds of posts disappear later... If you want a Personal Practice Discussion area where each member can post and/or store threads of choice, let us know.

An upright heart? IMO, there is an academic / scholar approach to understanding it and there is a Daoist point of view (POV). for an academic POV, this is a good read: http://www.sino-platonic.org/complete/spp235_de_character_early_China.pdf

What I find interesting is that I was inclined to always go back to the oldest possible pictogram which has the road and NOT any heart component... but the chu script appears to drop the road and has the heart part. I suddenly felt that Flowing Hands emphasis on "Dao Xin" (The heart of Dao) made sense given Dao De... apple? The 'apple of my eye'

In the Guodian chapters: Dao: 9, 15, 16, 18, 25, 30, 32, 35, 37, 40, 41, 48, 55, 59 De: 41, 54, 55 These appear pretty close to Chu bamboo characters used in the only chapters where Dao and De both appear: Ch. 55: De: Ch. 41: De Ch. 41 and 55: DAO

There must be a curve to describe the best times to NATURALLY abstain... from 0-15 and let's make a bell curve and say the last 15 years of your life... INTENTIONAL abstinence is going against the flow of nature. You might as well become a Trappist Monk and stop talking. I abstained from TV for about 10 years... I am not going to kid myself that there is any comparison... except I did it without thought and asking others... it was just all too stupid and not where my energy was going and a waste of time and the decision was not a decision at all... it just happened... for 10 years... Back to NATURALLY abstaining... Your putting ideals (you mentioned delusions), and obstacles in your path... Dating is for uncertainty, indecision, doubt, double-check, checking it out, and just waiting out the time... If you need time to decide... you are just buying time... for something out there or inside. If your going to play the field, don't play games with others. How can they become a part of a decision you have which they would never otherwise entertain. Your better off entertaining what life has in front of you. Your over-thinking, over-evaluating, and under-appreciating nature itself and what unfolds in front of you at your age. Have courage to face your inner thoughts and outer circumstances; they conflict at times because of our thinking. When you are pursuing something without much thought, without much questioning, without internet or TV... your on your Way...

We don't practice living life... we simply live life. As Baopuzi pointed out, 'practice' is not natural living; it is forcing a routine on life. I think there is little differentiation between the definitions in the end. 為: wei: doing 無為: wu wei: non-doing 為無為: wei wu wei: doing-non-doing My personal feeling is that for Laozi, he ultimately brings the parts into the whole to show they are all part of the whole. We can divide them up but in the end, Daoism sees the whole. And so I fully agree with the last statement: the real goal of daoism is to achive wei wu wei, or to be able to do things in a naturally constructive and positive way. the true yang state so to speak.

This is how I have experienced it... it is not that we get out of the way, but we ride the way... become one with it so they are indistinguishable. IMO, these are about complementary whole ideas. Action vs Non-Action {merged} Affairs vs Non-Affairs {merged} Not vs Non-Not {merged} Even if it means flavor doesn't change the base idea of opposite negation/compliment. As the GD has this chapter and uses 未, I looked at another ancient Chu writing often using this and it seems to be the same usage... of 'Not'. I would say it is more important we get the idea instead of the perfect wording.

Greg Giraldo graduated from Harvard Law and turned comedian... His overpowering sense of the mundane mixed with biting wit made him one of my favorite comedians. His participation in the 'roasts' are classic... but like a few others, substance abuse caught up with him. Some might say that they are too caught up in their fame, etc.. In his case, I think he really saw something that most others do not see... http://comedians.about.com/od/comediansal/p/greggiraldo.htm

It is also a matter of different perspectives... We may think we're creating a pretty package for someone to open and discovery something of interest. What they see is simply baggage.

My feeling is there are multiple levels of this... My wife accuses me of this on a daily basis. This is something I am more-or-less aware of. I think Spotless talks about this as more an active awareness but he would have to relate that.

The idiom he is remembered by, "Courage without tactics", is best exemplified by his getting trapped in Gaixia. He fell for a well worn tactic to take the opposing general's great love (Yu, in this case) and taking her down into the canyon... Yu wildly chased to simply find himself in the very pit of the canyon's abyss, surrounded with no escape. In this bowled cavern, the captured troops were forced to sing “Chu Song from Four Sides” which is a lament for missing one’s family. Defeated troops simply put their weapons down and cried... Xiang Yu's wife committed suicide for feeling the cause of the fall of Chu. This is as much a physical abyss as one can endure... but Xiang Yu escaped the canyon ! He slit his throat after locals pointed him in the wrong direction to the Wu River and his entire fleeing army killed. Xiang Yu endured two abyss in a short time.

Interesting question... I have not thought about that. Instead of guessing, I'll hear you out

I wrote about this here, see down at Post #5 on whether there is some basis for Laozi using 1,2,3: http://thetaobums.com/topic/32324-cosmology-in-ancient-chinese-text/ If I had to choice one of the Interpreations by RaisingSun, it would be a form of "C". I still find the Huainanzi passage the best cosmological picture (and next the six great stages at my link above). I'll give the Huainanzi here so others can consider the original as well. I'll give a bold heading to show how I interpret it: 天墜未形， 馮馮翼翼， 洞洞灟灟， 故曰太昭。 道始于虛霩， 虛霩生宇宙， 宇宙生氣 氣有涯垠. 清陽者薄靡而為天， 重濁者凝滯而為地。 清妙之合專易， 重濁之凝竭難， 故天先成而地後定。 天地之襲精為陰陽， 陰陽之專精為四時， 四時之散精為萬物。 The Great One / HengXian (supported by: Tai Yi Sheng Shui , HengXian, Lushu Chunqui, Huangdi sijing, Huainanzi, Book of Rites) Prior to the Opening of the Universe and pouring down of all life forms This is called the Primal Illumination. Dao Dao awoke out of this boundless void. ONE The boundless void gave rise to the cosmos; The cosmos gave rise to [Primal] Qi. [Primal] Qi spread as a shoreline. TWO That which was clear and bright formed into Heaven; That which was heavy and impure formed into Earth. It is easy for that which is clear and bright to uniformly gather [as the sky] But difficult for the heavy and impure to solidify [as earth and matter]. Therefore Heaven was completed first, and Earth afterwards. The coiling essences of Heaven and Earth formed into Yin Yang. The uniformly gathering essences of Yin Yang gave rise to the four seasons. THREE The disseminating essences of the four seasons created the ten thousand things.