dawei

Very similar to the Huainanzi chapter 16: chapter 16: The po asked the hun: “What is the structure of the Way?” The hun responded: “It takes nothing as its structure.” The po asked: “Does nothing have a form?” The hun responded: “It does not have anything.” The po asked: “How can one obtain and hear nothing?” The hun said: “One encounters it directly. If you look at it, it has no form; if you listen to it, it has no sound. It can be called the ‘obscure darkness.’ The ‘obscure darkness’ is how one refers to it, but it is not the Way.” The po said: “I have obtained it.” He thereupon turned back to himself and looked inwardly. The hun said: “In general, for those who obtain the Way, their form cannot be seen, the name cannot be grasped. Now, you still have a form and a name. How are you capable of the Way?” The po said: “What use are words? I will return to my ancestor.” The po turned back to look, but the hun suddenly could not be seen. The po turned back to his own existence, and then he also submerged himself in the formless.

I know Jia Dao's works from Hinton's translations. I own this (as well as several others by Hinton): Tao Chien By Hinton Like some other chinese poets, I was attracted to them due what seemed their love of wine more than poetry

In the past, I have made too much of a dichotomy/duality of Dao, buying into the idea of a Wu-state [non-existence] of Dao and a You-state [existence] of Dao. Here, Dao is equated with ONE as well; but I now view Dao akin to non-existent emanation or coming forth from ONE. Maybe it is the dormant, potential blueprint for creation waking up... I explained a little more here recently: (#21 and 26) http://thetaobums.com/topic/36132-if-god-exists-has-he-always-created/?p=576845 I have slowly moved away from a dual-state picture to more of a linked, continuous chain as: All things originate in non-existence; Dao is the turn around point and thus is sourcecode and causality of the manifest world unfolding and returning. (The linked, continuous chain is something which Flowing Hands mentioned concerning Pre-heaven and Post-Heaven issues and I found it meshes with my newer picture) Where you wrote "The Dao that is manifest" is maybe my older generalized idea. But how do we know the manifest world? Through observation/senses. So maybe in the simplest form: The Dao'ing we observe in creation is not the absolute Dao. We see but the outward working through creation. We are not viewing the absolute aspect yet but only one-half (which seems to put me back to my dualism but it is more like looking at Ice-form does not mean we see the Vapor-formless). I actually like the second Dao as a verb (Dao'ing) to reveal the movement and unfolding. Now I would explain that Dao is manifested/invested in creation but I think this is where one has to rightfully bring in the concepts of De (Dao's capacity/power/efficacious) and Ziran (self-so'ing naturalness) to round out the idea. Getting back to, how do we know the manifest world: I think the later lines in Ch.1 show that what we know about the manifest world is simply through our senses and in most particularly, our sight. To borrow from what dustybeijing wrote several posts earlier: 故恆無欲也，以觀其眇 So, free of desire, perceive the Unperceivable, 恆有欲也，以觀其所噭 Full of desire, perceive the manifest; Yet this is a clue that we can peer into the unperceivable.... and there is a gateway to do so if you reach the turn around point. I mention it in a much earlier post here... but it is in chinese: http://thetaobums.com/topic/19570-ttc-study-chapter-1-of-the-tao-te-ching/?p=403363

Ok... from one non-Chinese/non-sinologist to another My long standing position is that the base meaning of the line is simple: Dao [as source singularity] once Dao'ing [in manifest multiplicity] is not the absolute/eternal Dao. Note: "Absolute" here is based on Heng from the older text. Those who use Chang often translate it as "Constant" which I think is only half of a picture. Over time, I have found that the line itself is doing this action as well. 1. Ke-Fei = Can / Cannot. Similar to Shi-Fei (Yes / No) of the legalist or even Wu-You (non-existence / existence) of Laozi or This vs That of Zhuangzi. 2. Absolute Dao as singular is ever changing; Static-Singular / Ever Changing-Multiple Thus, Dao results in THIS or Dao results in NOT-THIS (THAT), is the absolute ever changing Dao as the source. I read an interesting blog which showed the origins of Ke as a Yang aspect (left side of a circle arising, starting) and Fei as a Yin aspect (right side of a circle, descending). The two sides are simply two sides of Xuan (玄) and at the turn around points (where they merge) it is singular (Dao) and cycle is Heng (absolute).

IMO, it should read as: Do not look upon desirable items and people will avoid discomfort [of the heart].

To each his own ! I find a kind of playfulness in the Ke-Fe positions. 道可道非恆道 Way can, Way cannot, Ever changing Way...

I am not going to speak for what another website of energy practice may do or not. I can only deal with what we have here: Whether women feel welcomed or not. I would recommend for folks interested: Women in Daoism Added: We should probably end this thread on this note.

True. I provided where to see the Guodian Bamboo. This is the only other place I know to view the MWD silk text: http://www.alice-dsl.net/taijiren/index.html added: I see that my link to the MWD Silk is the same as your

I see it more like: 1. TTB offers the safe space 2. Men come in and dominate the space 3. TTB re-offers the space Buddhism was special interest... as was Hindu and Esoteric talk... and Local meetup... and film and book discussions, and healing circle, and interviews, and PPDs, and textual studies... Does this really get missed?

Yes... I've said that already in this thread... the question is: Why don't they? If one has a business, they ultimately must face serious questions as to why the business is not working... so here we are.

It is a good and thoughtful post... but still possibly a bit utopian. We try not to moderate content; folks can post what they want. And posting styles are what they are; sometimes tasteful and sometimes not... but the rules look mostly to insults, intimidation, hatred, etc. We provide a space for everyone to post and express themselves but if they feel intimidated, disrespected, ignored, talked down to, etc... then it is not the space but the attitudes which prevail. Let's not forget that a sub-forum or forum in general is meant to consolidate content so that folks can talk a common issue. As women issues are largely squeezed out of most areas, it seems logical to create one.

Me too I PM'ed him to ask some more details as it could be an IP issue (ie: banned IP; I can clear up such issues if confirmed) Carry on

I am curious how they really validate the gender of someone who wants access to the area...

As was said before... the entire TTB has run-over and overtaken by male cultivation. Where can you not post it? (rhetorical)

Use this link: http://terebess.hu/english/tao/_index.html At the top, you can go in and out of the major texts. To answer your question: Every other version, including the oldest Guodian, has the first 弗... so it seems likely a typo. Also see here to confirm the Guodian has it: http://www.daoisopen.com/A9toA10Chapters232.html

And I should let everyone know that the new area actually still falls quite short in terms of providing women a safe and secure area to talk about anything they want in terms of issues and cultivation, or life. There is a feature which would require a login to get access and this would effectively give them the full privacy they might really want to talk some issues... but I am sure the male population here would scream mutiny to give woman such a secure feeling here. For now, the new form area is open and moderated by women like a PPD.

You forgot to post all of Trunk's comments earlier... he included for such reasons as this one: The admin also has broad discretion to protect the civility and resources of any aspect within TTBs e-community. What men have run off women? Chidragon for one. A TCM doctor. He belittled her and claimed she knew nothing. She didn't come back. So his recent un-welcoming manner of lecturing of another newbie has now resulted in his suspension again. Staff sees much more than a single thread. Women can post ANYWHERE... and that includes a specific cultivation area called Women's Cultivation. I don't see the problem but I am hearing a lot of unfriendly welcome of a Women's area... Ergo, this thread...

It has become clear to me, some staff (I won't speak for all), some women (I won't speak for all) that the male domination of TTB violations almost every principle of boy's club exclusivity; women don't feel welcomed here to freely talk and post. More women have been run off then men; and given there very small numbers that is astonishing. How about we accept that men are not going to change their dominating ways and the best solution is to give the women a place where they can talk without men running them off and posting rules down their throat This decision has been made... so I am not sure what your arguing for... male domination without any regard to females? It's rhetorical, please. But this is further proof of the inability of men to comprehend that TTB is not a welcoming place for Women. The first site of an area for women is meet with dominating angst...

You repeatedly want the last word of lecture to everyone. You don't seem to comprehend the concept of Wu Wei either... Any aspect of life follows its way... Here is the TTB Way: http://thetaobums.com/topic/31825-thetaobums-three-foundations-eclectic-egalitarian-civil/ We are not here to create a Chidragon utopia where everyone bows to your lectured way. I already asked you to stop side-lining this; and this is the third thread where you just want to argue your point against staff; Always believing your mission is to push your truth onto others. ~~~ ADMIN ACTION ~~~ You now have two months to figure out whether your mission is to come back to TTB and lecture everyone about your truth or you want to actually discuss a topic. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Chronology of Daoist History Louis Komjathy/Kang Siqi 康思奇, Ph.D. Center for Daoist Studies CHINESE DYNASTIES and DAOIST HISTORY Spring and Autumn Period (770-480 B.C.E.) Laozi 老子 (fl. 560 B.C.E.?; pseudo-historical) Warring States (480-222 B.C.E.) Zhuang Zhou 莊周 (ca. 370-ca. 290) Neiye 內業 (ca. 350 B.C.E.) Zhuangzi 莊子 (Inner Chapters) (ca. 350 B.C.E.) Guodian 郭店 Laozi 老子(ca. 300 B.C.E.) Zhuangzi 莊子 (Outer Chapters) (ca. 250 B.C.E.) Qin Dynasty (221-207 B.C.E.) Western Han Dynasty (206 B.C.E.-8 C.E.) Huang-Lao 黃老 Mawangdui 馬王堆Laozi 老子 (ca. 168 B.C.E.) Heshang gong 河上公 (ca. 160 B.C.E.?) Huainanzi 淮南子 (145 B.C.E.) Daode jing 道德經 (Received) (ca. 150 B.C.E.) Yan Zun 巖尊(ca. 83 B.C.E.-10 C.E.) Liexian zhuan 列仙傳 (ca. 50 B.C.E.) First Taiping jing 太平經 (31-7 B.C.E.) Chimei 赤眉 (Red Eyebrows; 18 C.E.) Eastern Han Dynasty (25-220 C.E.) Laojun 老君 Zhang Daoling 張道陵 (fl. 142) Tianshi dao 天師道 (Celestial Masters) Heming shan 鶴鳴山 Ge Xuan 葛玄(164-244) Zhang Jue 張角 (fl. 184) Taiping dao 太平道 (Great Peace) Laozi bianhua jing 老子變化經 (180) Zhang Lu 張魯 (fl. 190) Laozi Xiang’er zhu 老子想爾注 (ca. 190) Zhongli Quan 鐘離權 (2nd c. C.E.?) Period of Disunion (220-589) Ji Kang 稽康 (Xi Kang; 223-262) Cantong qi 參同契 (ca. 220) Wang Bi 王弼 (226-249) Xu Xun 許遜 (239-292) Wei Huacun 魏華存 (251-334) Huangting jing 黃庭經 (ca. 288) Guo Xiang 郭象 (252-312) Xuanxue 玄學 (Mysterious Learning) Taiqing 太清 (Great Clarity) Ge Hong 葛洪(Baopuzi 抱朴子; 287-347) Huahu jing 化胡經 (ca. 300) Baopuzi 抱朴子 (320) Shenxian zhuan 神仙傳 (ca. 320) Xu Mai 許邁 (b. 301) Xu Mi 許謐 (303-373) Yang Xi 楊羲 (330-386?) Xu Hui 許翽 (341-ca. 370) Xu Huangmin 許黃民 (361-429) Tao Kedou 陶可斗 (d. 362) Shangqing 上清 (Highest Clarity) Ge Chaofu 葛巢甫 (fl. 390s) Lingbao 靈寶 (Numinous Treasure) Kou Qianzhi 寇謙之(365-448) Yin Tong 尹通 (398-499?) Duren jing 度人經 (ca. 400) Lu Xiujing 陸修靜 (406-477) Santian neijie jing 三天內界經 (420) Daoist Theocracy (424-451) Lingbao Catalogue (437) Wang Daoyi 王道一 (447-510) Tao Hongjing 陶弘景 (456-536) Louguan 樓觀 (Louguan tai; ca. 470) Sandong jingshu mulu 三洞經書目錄 (471) Maoshan 茅山 (492) Shennong bencao jing 神農本草經 (ca. 495) Zhen’gao 真誥 (500) Daoism Proscribed (504) First Buddho-Daoist Debate (520) Second Buddho-Daoist Debate (570) Wushang biyao 無上秘要 (574) Sui Dynasty (581-618) Yinyuan jing 因緣經 (ca. 600) Tang Dynasty (618-906) Lord Lao Miracle (620) Fengdao kejie 奉道科戒 (620) Sandong zhunang 三洞珠囊(680s) Daojiao yishu 道教義樞(680s) Sun Simiao 孫思邈 (601-693) Sima Chengzhen 司馬承禎 (647-735) Zhang Wanfu 張萬福 (fl. 700-742) Wu Yun 吳筠 (ca. 700-787) Tang Princesses Ordained (711) Tianchang guan 天長觀 (a.k.a. Baiyun guan) (722) Gu Kuang 顧況 (735-814) Sandong qionggang 三洞瓊綱 (ca. 748) Daoism Persecuted (845) Du Guangting 杜光庭 (850-933) Lü Dongbin 呂洞賓 (b. 798?) Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms (907-960) Chuandao ji 傳道集 (ca. 920) Tan Zixiao 譚紫霄 (fl. 935) Song Dynasty (960-1279) Chen Tuan 陳摶 (d. 989) Tianxin 天心 (Celestial Heart) Da Song tiangong baozang 大宋天宮寶藏(1019) Yunji qiqian 雲笈七籤 (1020s) Qingwei 清微 (Pure Tenuity) Tongchu 童初 (Youthful Incipience) Jingming 淨明 (Pure Brightness) Lin Lingsu 林靈素 (1076-1120) Shenxiao 神霄 (Divine Empyrean) Liu Haichan 劉海蟾; fl. 1031) Liu Biangong 劉卞功 (1071-1143) Zhang Boduan 張伯端 (d. 1082) Wuzhen pian 悟真篇 (ca. 1060) Dadao 大道 (Great Dao) Taiyi 太一 (Great One) Wang Chongyang 王重陽 (1113-1170) Quanzhen 全真 (Complete Perfection) Sun Buer 孫不二 (1119-1182) Zeng Cao 曾慥 (fl. 1131-1155) Daoshu 道樞 (ca. 1150) Lijiao shiwu lun 立教十五論 (ca. 1160) Qiu Changchun 丘長春 (1148-1227) Chongyang gong 重陽宮 (ca. 1171) Longmen dong 龍門洞 Longhu shan 龍虎山 Taishang ganying pian 太上感應篇 (1165) Bai Yuchan 白玉蟾 (1194-ca. 1227) Tianchang gong 天長宮 restored (1223) Changchun gong 長春宮 (ca. 1228) Yongle gong 永樂宮 (1240) Xuandu baozang 玄都寶藏 (1244) Buddho-Daoist Debate (1258) Yuan Dynasty (1279-1368) Buddho-Daoist Debate (1281) Anti-Daoist Edicts (1281) Xiuzhen shishu 修真十書 (ca. 1300) Quanzhen qinggui 全真清規 (ca. 1320) Ming Dynasty (1368-1644) Zhang Sanfeng 張三丰 (fl. 1380?) Wudang shan 武當山 Zhang Yuchu 張宇初 (1361-1410) Zhang Yuqing 張宇清(1364-1427) Zhengtong daozang 正統道藏 (1445) Wu Shouyang 伍守陽 (1563-1644) Xu daozang 續道藏 (1607) Qing Dynasty (1644-1911) Wang Changyue 王常月 (d. 1680) Longmen 龍門 (Dragon Gate) Chuzhen jie 初真戒 (ca. 1660) Daozang jiyao 道藏輯要 (1733) Liu Yiming 劉一明 (1734-1821) Liu Huayang 劉華陽 (fl. 1736) Min Yide 閔一得 (1758-1836) Daoshu shier zhong 道書十二種 (ca. 1780) Huiming jing 慧明經 (1794) James Legge (1815-1897) Daozang xubian 道藏續編 (1834) Zhao Bichen 趙壁塵 (b. 1860) John Chalmers’ Translation of Daode jing (1868) Xingming fajue mingzhi 性命法訣明指 (ca. 1880) Chen Yingming 陳攖寧 (1880-1969) The Texts of Taoism (1891) Wu-Liu xianzong 伍劉仙宗 (1897) Zhang Enpu 張恩浦 (1904-1969) Republic of China (1912-1949; 1949-) Zhuangchen Dengyun 莊陳登雲 (1911-1976) Taoist Association of China (1913) Alan Watts (1915-1973) Share K. Lew (b. 1918) Daozang jinghua lu 道藏精華錄 (1922) Min Zhiting 閔智亭 (1924-2004) Ni Hua-ching 倪清和 (b. 1931?) Moy Lin-shin 梅連羨(1931-1998) Mantak Chia 謝明德 (b. 1944) Taiwanese Taoist Association (1950) Chinese Daoist Association (1957) Hong Kong Taoist Association (1961) Daozang jinghua 道藏精華 (1963) Kristofer Schipper (b. 1934) receives Zhengyi ordination in Taiwan (1968) Michael Saso (b. 1930) receives Zhengyi ordination in Taiwan (1970) Taoist Sanctuary (1970) Taoist Yoga (1970) The Secret and the Sublime (1973) Zhuang-Lin xu daozang 莊林續道藏 (1975) Taoist Tai Chi Society (ca. 1975) College of Tao (1979) Healing Tao (1979) The Wandering Taoist (1983) Awaken Healing Energy through the Tao (1983) Workbook for Spiritual Development (1984) Orthodox Daoism in America (ODA; 1986) The Plumtree (1988) Taoist Resources (1988-1997) Immortal Sisters (1989) Daojiao yifan 道教儀範 (1990) Daoists of Ching Chung Taoist Association (San Francisco) perform funeral rite for Edward Schafer (1913-1991) and Anna Seidel (1938- 1991) (1991) Vitality, Energy, Spirit (1991) Zangwai daoshu 藏外 道書 (1992; 1995) The Frost Bell (1992-2002) Belgian Taoist Association (1992) The Taoist Experience (1993) The Empty Vessel (1993-present) Taoist Restoration Society (1993) The Taoist Body (1993 [1982]) Singapore Taoist Mission (1996) Shi Jing 世靜 (Alan Redman), Shi Dao 世道 (Peter Smith), and others receive Longmen ordination in mainland China (1995) British Taoist Association (1996) The Dragon’s Mouth (1996-present) Taoism and Ecology Conference (1998) Daoist Studies Website (2000) Taoism and the Arts of China Exhibition (2000) Conference on Daoist Cultivation (2001) Handbooks for Daoist Practice (2003; 2008) Association Francaise de Taoisme (2004) Zhonghua daozang 中華道藏 (2004) The Taoist Manual (2005) Daoist Foundation (2007)

Well let her know we have opened one http://thetaobums.com/forum/393-womens-cultivation/ I started it as a PPD so it was moderated like a PPD but it gets lost in the shuffle and no exposure for those lurking around. So now I've created it as its own area. Guests can see the area title if they come in but only members logged in will be able to get to read the threads. Although it is in the regular forum area, the plan is to let it run more like a PPD with member(s) to moderator it. That will also help to keep the staff out unless there is something which really needs our involvement.

Yes... now we're getting somewhere once we can get outside of a single book and see the history which leads up and influences it

Do you reciprocate by staying out of everyone else's thread? I know you would like to be above all staff and rules... You already know you can start your own threads so I am done with this game you like to play with staff. Last warning on side-tracking this. I'll clean it up later.

These comma placement you show are a very modern placement... some 2,000 years after Laozi by modern day scholars or websites which want to post it. To cite Chan's book on his Laozi translation: Ma Hsu-lan wrote in 1924 the comma placement as you like to boost as the one and true... yet in his 1954 book he did not have it there anymore. We can give it to 100 people and get dozens of placements. Your not adding any value in your arguments to support your comma placements. You've made it quite clear it is your litmus test of CH. 1 whether another person will understand anything of the entire work or not. So please stop your arguing over your commas as the One and only correct way. This is a discussion forum. If you want to start a thread on the "Gospel according to Chidragon in the One and Only proper translation into English of the Laozi"... go ahead.

I usually keep the flow as visual as possible when I picture all these... follow the flow from one to another as you think about them and you'll also see there Yang is External (descending) and Yin in Internal (ascending). Your clock has lots of overlapping concepts pulled off, but let's look at a few: 1. LU start at 3am. It is Yin/Interior/Ascending and its paired with the LI Yang/Exterior/Descending .(shown as metal pair). 2. ST Yang/Exterior/Descending pairs with SP Yin/Interior/Ascending as the Earth Pair. So your question is: What is the YangMing pair LI / ST adjacent , and the TaiYin pair, Lu / SP, not adjacent? It is a more symptomatic process. There is a chart here that I keep and it seems to also help in understanding this issue: The 6 level concept in TCM The 6 meridian theory refers to the 3 yang and 3 yin patterns known as Tai Yang, Yang Ming, Shao Yang, Tai Yin, Shao Yin and Jue Yin. This is also known as differentiation according to the 6 stages (or the 6 meridians) and could be translated as the 6 "levels" due to the progression of conditions from Tai Yang (most external) to Jue Yin (most internal). Using the theory of the 6 stages you can see a progression of conditions from external to internal. The 6 stages or levels then are as follows: 3 Yang Stages or "Levels" Tai Yang - posterior of the body (example, posterior neck/head pain) Yang Ming - anterior of the body (example, flushed face, bloated abdomen) Shao Yang - lateral aspects of the body (example, abdominal distension in the liver area) 3 Yin Stages or "Levels" Tai Yin - issues where the lung and spleen traverse, abdominal pain, diarrhea Shao Yin - issues where the heart and kidney traverse, pain in the heart Jue Yin - issues where the liver and pericardium traverse, liver area pain