dawei

Exactly. I think maybe it would of been better to share the entire text (even if a link), or attempt to translate the entire text for discussion (or just for reference). These 'school battles' rarely leave a thread unaffected.

I have moved this to the Taoist Textual section... It can maintain a stronger 'on-topic' presence here. I will say that OpenDao in another thread made some comments which are exactly what Baopuzi talks about: Living long is not natural... ergo, practice to extend life are not natural... they are not the Dao of man... I don't mean to push the topic in any direction but I think there is much to be learned from Baopuzi.

~~~ ADMIN MOVING TO THE PIT ~~~ Folks can continue their position vs counter-position in the Pit.

~~~ ADMIN CLOSES HIS EYES... AND THE WORDS COMETH... Now I lay me down to sleep, I pray the Lord my soul to keep, If I shall die before I wake, I pray the Lord my soul to take. Amen. ~~~ ADMIN OPENS HIS EYES... AND THE THREAD GOETH...

This is plucked from the text. Not a thorough investigation and translation from start to end. If you want to translate the text with commentary, you are welcomed.

The Three Teachings are One. Or better... the Vinegar Tasters

As a materialist, you are concerned about what is real. Why not spend a day throwing out any idea of real and assume it is not real and seek what is real... Better men have spend a lifetime contemplating it.... meaning better than you and me !

So the question I'll add based on this: You said that Laozi had a teacher from Mao Shan. Can you relate more information?

I suspected you meant what you said. Thanks for clarifying further the distinction as you see it. This is how I have understood its role within some schools.

There is no persuasion intended. I only said that maybe Vitalii will explain his meaning. I'll let Vitalii talk for himself...

What is the origin and source of the Yo realm? So, the Yo Realm is but a shadow of what? And of course this is rhetorical as I mean the answer to both are Wu... Do... do you live in Yo (shadow) and call it the source? Wu wei is about the source... not the shadow.

I quoted JAJ before on this, so I didn't want to really repeat it. http://thetaobums.com/topic/32223-what-exactly-is-a-dan-tien/?p=490811 Dr. Yang talks a lot about this too... It's not about a philosophical construct... it is an energetic reality that those in energy arts have known for a long time.

They are no more separate than Yin and Yang are separate... but for ease of explanation and due to historical preference by sects, describing them separately arises. But if you emphasize too much YIN (Xing) or too much YANG (Ming), then one has created an imbalance. The step-wise idea of reversing the separation back to unity comes from Laozi... as does the seamless complimentary aspect (Spokes of a wheel = Ming; Hub of a wheel = Xing).

Maybe Vitalii can say which one he meant. Xin gong is a preparatory practice in some branches. So, they are both used to describe a similar practice based on the school.

As an intellectual concept, it is empty and void of meaning. It is an outcome/result. And as such, if one has truly left behind the physical and mental attachments to the physical realm, it reveals the energetic connection which directs our being. It is a step in the reversion process. The next step would be spiritually based. As such, Wu Wei is understood as the inner communication with the eternal. Meaning: If your just communicating with the physical world then this is just the false self talking to the false world of things. One can cultivate that if they want.

Realize that the phrase "preceded by" means that 'Cultivating energy' must be before 'stablization of the mind-heart'. I am only appealing to the english translation you gave, not necessary the full text.

I took a quick look at how Cleary translates this and he writes: "Stabilization of mind must be preceded by development of energy because the mind has no place to set to work; So focus on energy is used as a starting point. This is what is called preservation of pure energy."

Yes... which supports Ming before Xing

Your sentence break is correct. But it is because the mind-heart is hard/difficult to control (to put to proper calmness/stabilization) This is very awkward and should be a flag that the break and meaning are off.

No. I can anticipate several chapters you might suggest but maybe in the sub-forum it would be more appropriate anyways.

The Huainanzi is a rich source for this tradition. I accept the H-L term for what it is trying to convey but I think it is lost on most. I tend to like it because then one is reminded to not look at one book alone but the tradition. I prefer the older text but do have several of the later ones. I want the history of it sorted out first so I can see where the influences come from; I think most all of them are also influenced by Buddhism. Over the years, I have not used any single translation but look at several in most cases. http://terebess.hu/english/tao/_index.html But if I had to pick five I like to read for diversity: Chan Flowing Hands Hinton Ni Ta-Kao

In the end, there is no discussion if the only thing being said is "true methods are hidden and cannot be discussed". In such a case, one has removed themselves from participating in a discussion as people are not interested in such stand-off-ness. You would find people seriously interested if the topic was seriously discussed with examples.

see here: http://thetaobums.com/topic/35097-flowing-hands-interview/ Feel free to add questions.

I only meant that in the 5,000 years of history, which past writings do you say reflect such teachings? My point was that Quanzhen is quite modern relative to the history... so it must be based on something. I would not suggest it made it all up. But you seem to suggest in 5,000 years, there is only one true method? Huang-Lao is not really ancient as it arose after all the writings I mentioned... it is the summation of thinking which joined Huang Di and Laozi into a philosophical thought, most notably found in the Huainanzi and the great historian Sima Qian was a follower of it. I was suggesting, but I'll say it more explicitly: If you can't relate your current Ming methods, which specific writings of the past reflect neigong? You have said: Ok... so spell it out from the DDJ

Yes, I get this point and it is probably the crux which is overlooked. The way to direct Xing to Ming is to start with Ming... this makes Xing easier (later) to arise and merge with Ming. that is my read so far. I think this is a hard sell from a historical point of view... I mean: Neigong has a long history not just a particular Quanzhen branch of teaching. Do you recognize the last 5,000 years of energy practices which result in, as Zhong Lü Chuan Dao Ji lists five classes of immortals? Whether it be Nie Ye or Baopuzi or Laozi or Zhuangzi.... they mention those who have 'attained dao'.