dawei

I'm going to paraphrase my understanding why your school follows the idea not to start with Xing Gong; As that simply alters one's Yin to be more Yin. Although there can be preparatory work (whether Xing Gong or Xin Gong), ultimately one is really starting the core practice with Ming Gong. if one doesn't start with Ming (Yang Energy) then there can be no merging to Xing (Yin Soul). As Ming is a yang part, the goal is to first restore Yuan Jing which can then be transformed to Yuan Qi (Ming restored); Then this yang energy can be merged to Xing aspect (Yuan Shen) to create a Yang-Shen. This is generally what I also understood as the proper way to 'reverse the process' which seems logical if one thinks of the unfolding: Unfolding: Dao > Wu Ji > Yuan Shen > Yuan Qi > Yuan Jing Reversing/Restoring: Jing > Qi > Shen > Wu Ji > Dao So it seems to me that the only differences between Yang-first methods and your schools is that you call them Ming Gong and have specific results which will identify it as a true method vs false method.

I did want to open a neidan sub-forum... and maybe we'll get there... but I don't think it will stop the misunderstanding as threads can start there and people can still say 'that is not neidan'.

I raised that to OpenDao here... but I think it got lost in the pages... that entire thread is worth a read http://thetaobums.com/topic/32430-neidan-vs-qigong/?p=494600

OpenDao.... some questions to get back to a thread you started: In previous posts: I tend to agree with Ming as 'fate' as it carries the further meaning of where this is supposed to be tied to. Can you focus more on Ming and comment further on it? Is the dual aspect also tied to 'fire and water', 'hun and po', 'heaven and earth' ?

http://thetaobums.com/topic/31585-xiao-yao-pai/

search lower dan tian and enteric nervous system

keep in mind that the point made is: "These are results of Neidan, not methods. " But your question seems to still be about a method-idea.

The bolded part Pouncing Tiger, Soaring Dragon is a Link to the story.

My point was that you can't swallow unless it is produced... and at some point, the idea of producing (as an indication) was replaced with the idea of swallowing (a method). Thus the indication was lost (true method was lost) and a new [false] method was born. I feel this is one way that false methods can arise.

I think the point being made is that the indications become a fixation and these are not methods... Pouncing Tiger, Soaring Dragon

That is an interesting line of thought... wondered if you would say more directly to this? The straw dog was made of straw and not clay or concrete for the very reason they wanted to step on it (maybe really insignificant except to a demonstration of superiority) but ultimately it must be flammable; it must succumb to something else... despite its apparent or presented form-value. value and devalue are but dualistic concepts to apply to the manifest world. But after the dust returns to dust... what else is there that returns... to what or where? Even if we don't want to turn this too spiritual, we can say that Oneness is all there is... and thus, we are really being asked to drop the dualism too. So we neither value nor devalue, but accept all things equally. Now, while I may accept a tree the same as a man.... and it takes some pains to see the man as worthy as the tree at times... but I can understand that my interaction with the two is not the same but that is simply recognizing form as I see it.

Don't we find people around the world living in this simple way... outside of the modern society and living simply and within the group? It may only be idealism to those who cannot live it. In another thread someone asked how to practice outside given all the distractions... In the first place, 'practice' is not natural... so that is why there is a struggle. Knowing the ten thousand doesn't require a practice. If one could get beyond concepts of 'practice', 'ideal', 'social harmony' as these simply cause seeking and grasping... then one realizes that practice itself is imperfect. Practice is a vehicle some are riding to get from A to B.

My apologies, as the admin... I have talked to the member in question, who is a valued Steward. Each staff, high or low, volunteers their extra time here. We are all members and wish to express some ideas but I do ask staff to remember that all their comments can reflect on staff. Anyone can feel free to PM me directly as needed as well.

That's because you don't work enough directly with energy in the manner in which I am speaking. There is Qi everywhere inside and outside of us. The topic is the video example of breathing/non-breathing. Qi is present in both cases.

I should also clarify that not all meditation is energy work.

There was a time when after 2 hours of Qigong I would do laying down meditation and the energy was so energized it would race around and I felt like a light bulb. In such a case it was not a feeling of refined but turbo-charged.

From my perspective it is yes and no.... As another suggesting in another thread... you can be enlightened from peeling fruit... peeling fruit can be a meditation... So training can be a meditation; meditation can be a training... but insert anything in the mix. These are but tools along a path on some level and the tools vary so much, as does the path. Anyone who says there is one way to do this or that is caught up in the tool and/or path.

I think as Deluin suggests... one can 'feel' this not think this. But I know that those who don't interact with energy at this level may try to get their head around it.. but it can hard to even explain but easy to feel. Even in energy exchange, you would be able to feel it now if the other person knows how to do it. There are so many ways to describe the feeling of Qi... coarse and fine is simply one of dozens and dozens.

And not by wearing a breathing mask

Those who truly work with energy, there is no separating the breath and Qi at times... but... if one is breathing, there is Qi; if one is not breathing there is still Qi.

I recall when my friend was going to have his first child... I would laugh at him and tell him that he will condition the natural freedom right out of the child within few years. One day, several years later he was interacting with the child and I started to laugh... he looked at me seriously and then started to laugh himself. One of the first words a child learns is 'no'... And there you go...

That looks great.

And I think the next step to finer breath is when you no longer become aware of breath[ing].

Interesting you mention swinging back and forth... there is a swaying back and forth which can be done at the sole of the feet... it grounds and releases and grounds and releases. One can sync that up with movements if they want.

This is correct. video example time vs breathing: 3:18 - start inhale 3:22 - hold breath (hands turn to sky) 4:02 - exhale To get to the video goal, you probably want to first follow a natural point of inhale and exhale and then find the places where you can begin to skip. By the time you get to doing the video goal, it is not 'holding the breath' as much as it is umbilical breathing (mentioned by Soaring Crane). You may want to do a thread (or here) on that topic. There is a book often recommended: Qigong Meditation: Embryonic Breathing