dawei

I think 李雪蓮 means that the reply broke the quote box... welcome 李雪蓮

This does seem odd... so off to query the tables.... and I find that you have the 3rd most uploaded files on the site... As there is a global limit per user, I *guess* that maybe it limits your current upload based on some algorithm at some point.... to keep you from hitting the limit.

Based on my research, this is a controlled by the PHP configuration on the server and not within the forum software as a setting. I have put the request into the owner to see if we can get that bumped up to help members hitting this problem.

TTB Reference: Cultivating the Tao by Fabrizio

“Listen not with your ears but with your mind. Listen not with your mind but with your primal breath. The ears are limited to listening, the mind is limited to tallying. The primal breath, however, awaits things emptily. It is only through the Way that one can gather emptiness, and emptiness is the fasting of the mind . . . Observe the void – the empty emits a pure light. Good fortune lies in stopping when it is time to stop. If you do not stop, this is called ‘galloping while sitting.’ Let your senses communicate within and rid yourself of the machinations of the mind. Then even ghosts and spirits will take shelter with you, not to mention men. This is how the myriad things are transformed.“ ~ Zuangzi, Chapter 4,Section 1 (excerpts), Wandering On the Way, pg. 32-33, Victor Mair

I said Wang Bi's commentary... we're talking about chapter 5. For those who want to see what the german sinologist Rudolf G. Wagner said in the aforementioned book: (various sections put together below) The opening "He" below is is talking about Richard Lynn's book on the Wang Bi Commentary... He will translate the first phrase of Laozi 5 as “Heaven and Earth are not benevolent and treat the myriad things as straw dogs” in the way hundreds of translators have done before him and will then translate Wang Bi’s commentary to this phrase: “Heaven and Earth do not make the grass grow for the sake of beasts, yet beasts eat the grass. They do not produce dogs for the sake of men, yet men eat dogs.” Evidently, Wang Bi did not read “straw dogs” but read “grass and dogs.” As the reader is kept in the dark about this, he or she will have to wonder why Wang Bi should write such a stupid commentary. In general, the translation seems to lack an understanding of the historicity of the meaning of a text. The modern Western translations have routinely translated chu gou as “straw dogs.” Straw/grass dogs in fact appear in the Tianyun chapter of the Zhuangzi (Zhuangzi yinde 37/14/31 and 38/14/33). According to this passage, the grass dogs were made for a sacrifice; they were treated with great deference during the sacrifice and discarded directly afterward. Apart from Zhuang Zun, from whom no statement is known to survive which spells out his reading of this expression, the Xiang Er, Wang Bi, and Heshang gong commentaries all agree to read it as “grass and dogs.” For the Xiang Er and Heshang gong commentaries, “grass and dogs” stands for something utterly worthless. Furthermore, the Xiang Er commentary gives quite a different story about the term. In the commentary to the next phrase of the Laozi about the Sage’s not being kindly and treating the Hundred Families like grass and dogs, it writes: “Taking his model on Heaven and Earth, the Sage is kindly towards the good and not kindly towards the evil. As a king He will control and extirpate the evil ones, and also [like Heaven and Earth] regard them as being [as worthless and despicable] as grass and dogs. Therefore [true] human beings [the term ren alone has this meaning in the Xiang Er commentary, who directly confronts it in the commentary on Laozi 17.4 with “grass dogs”] should accumulate merits of good [deeds]. Their spirit communicates ith Heaven, and, should there be someone who wishes to attack or hurt them, Heaven will come to their rescue. The vulgar people [on the other hand] all belong to the category of grass and dogs. [Their] spirit cannot communicate with Heaven, because their harboring evil is like that of robbers and thieves who dare not meet eye to eye with an offi cial. [in this way their] spirit will quite naturally not be close to Heaven [so that], when [they] come to a critical juncture between life and death, Heaven will not know them [and not come to their help]. The benevolent Sage Huangdi knew the minds of later generations [when mankind deteriorated and not every man was a true human being anymore]. Therefore he bound grass and made it into dogs and attached [the grass dogs] above the doors [of family houses]. [in this manner] he wanted to say that the ‘doors’ [families] of later generations would all belong to the category of grass and dogs [i.e., would be as worthless as grass and dogs]. People [however] did not understand the subtle intention of Huangdi [which was to warn them against becoming so worthless], and in a meaningless manner imitated him [in placing the grass dogs above their doors] without reformingtheir evil hearts. This may be called a great evil.” In this reading, the grass/dogs are defi nitely not the sacrifi cial grass dogs but symbolic contraptions, where out of worthless material a worthless animal is made as a symbol of utter worthlessness. It is quite unlikely that the above-quoted commentators were unaware of the existence of the statements about “grass dogs” in the Zhuangzi, Huainanzi,and elsewhere. In fact, Wang Bi had a copy of the Zhuangzi and quoted him often. The commentators thus opted for the “grass and dog” reading in full knowledge of the option of the ritual “grass dog,” unanimously rejecting it. In fact, were one to read the passage as referring to the ritual grass dog, the Laozi would read, when translated into plain language, “Heaven and Earth are not kindly, they treat the ten thousand entities fi rst as something very precious, and then discard them as worthless.” There is to my knowledge not a single statement in the other parts of the Laozi that would confi rm that this text assumed that there was such a change in the attitude of Heaven and Earth. The modern Western translators have thus opted for the “straw dog” version against both the inner evidence of the text and the unanimous opinion of the early commentators. Needless to say, Wang Bi also accepted the “grass and dog” reading but interpreted it differently. In his reading, they were entities manifestly related to others [who would consume them], so that these others might be considered benefi ciaries of the kindliness of Heaven and Earth. He reads the Laozi here as arguing against this assumption. The Xiang Er Commentary reads: “Modeling themselves on the Dao, Heaven and Earth are kindly towards all those who are good, and not kindly towards all those who are evil. Thus [their] being not loving [a “translation” of “not kindly,” bu ren], means that they exterminate the evil ones among the ten thousand entities, and regard them as worthless as grass and as dogs.” This comment thus reads the Laozi statement against a reader’s assumption that Heaven and Earth establish justice. Although the text is quite clear in its claim that Heaven and Earth are treating all ten thousand entities as grass and dogs, the Xiang Er introduces a distinction between good and evil ones. Extrapolating from the commentary, the main text has thus to be read as “Heaven and Earth [in their establishment of justice] are not kindly [towards all the ten thousand entities]. They treat [some of] the ten thousand entities as grass and dogs.” The Heshang gong Commentary takes still another line. Commenting on the first sentence, it writes: “Heaven’s initiating and Earth’s generating does not happen by way of kindliness and favor, but by relying on That-which-is-of-itself-what-it-is” [of the ten thousand entities]. Commenting on the phrase “they treat the ten thousand entities like grass and dogs,” this commentary writes: “Heaven and Earth generate the ten thousand entities. [Among them] man is the most precious. That they regard [even man] as grass and dogs means that they do not expect any [gratitude] in return. Extrapolating from this commentary, the Laozi text has to be read as “Heaven and Earth [who create the ten thousand entities] are not kindly [towards even the most exalted among them]. They treat [all of] the ten thousand entities alike as [if they were not more exalted] than grass and dogs.” For Wang Bi’s commentary, the assumption of the Laozi’s implied reader concerning Heaven and Earth matches none of the three options described above [leaving aside the question of the Heshang gong Commentary’s date]. Here Heaven and Earth manage that “the ten thousand kinds of entities order and regulate each other,” so that, although the entities have many interactive relationships with each other, their order does not come about by interference with their own nature but by living out their own nature. In this way grass is not produced for cattle, but cattle will still eat the grass, and so on. Thefour commentators thus imply four rather different assumptions about Heaven and Earth in the reader’s mind against which the Laozi statement has to be read.All of these assumptions were in fact present.

WANG BI commentary to his own work.... about 15 pages back. I know you don't think westerner's are capable of understanding the text, but for those who have an open mind, refer to: A Chinese Reading of the Daodejing Wang Bi's Commentary on the Laozi With Critical Text and Translation

ever see that water flowing along... and in the soft current is... drift wood... tree branch... debris... trash... plastic bottle... torn clothing... our heart... following some other flowing thing... our heart seemingly desperately following ... some other flowing thing... our heart seemingly desperate...

The mind hesitates, waffles, changes constantly, and plays rope-a-dope... this is a sign of .... severe... what???

I think this is something I will want to explore in the Interview with you...

You should of stopped with the black humor of MoPai Dzogchen for Rainbow Body success via Neigh Gong... Let's not have this though... Closing.

That's why some question Wang Bi's received version which is the most popular around the world. He had some good ideas but this may not of been one of them.

I recall a group of western acupuncturist trying to duplicate the results of an eastern acupuncture study... and they could not. They finally went to talk to the eastern doctors about their needling techniques. Instead the eastern doctors asked whether the patient's believe in the efficacy of the doctor and the method of acupuncture. I think the moral of the story is simply that there is more than just one influence on the mind-body-spirit in most cases.

I agree that the current line feels forced... and when that happens we are right to keep searching and being open.

One idea I suddenly had was to look at the first part as a reference to heart-mind-spirit (UDT) and the second part as a reference to the alchemy process of the body's Qi (LDT).

It is really meant to be a reflection of the Sage's Wu Wei in regards to nature and people. As Dao provides a blueprint for the arising, the Sage is an imprint for that which has arisen. In both case, Dao and the Sage have the same function in the assisting of the self-becoming of all things. This is done without favoritism or preferential treatment... All things are viewed equally.

What is often forgotten about the straw dog ritual is why were the straw dogs burnt? The answer that they have exhausted their use is only indirectly correct. The reason is because they contain the sickness or disease or dangerous entity they were meant to absorb off the deceased. The only proper thing to do with such an item would be to burn it to ensure it is not used again or is exposed to anyone else. This ultimately seems to have little connection with bellows. The main issue which I keep coming back to on the 'straw dogs' is whether it has been obscured over the years which I tend towards... Even Wang Bi disagreed with the ritual aspect and seemed to say it should be "straw AND dogs". A lost meaning of Straw Dogs goes back to Huang Di's time... the were hung over doors as protection much like the lambs blood over the doors in the old testament story, so that death would pass by them. I am also suspicious of the fact that the Guodian doesn't have the straw dog part...

Returning to my Farm: In my youth I was out of tune with the world of man. My nature inclined me to mountains and streams. By mistake I fell into the web of the dusty world. And thirty years of my life have been wasted. The captive bird longs for its home in the grove. The fish in the tank craves for its former abode. So I have cleaned up the wilderness south of the village; Remaining rustic, I have returned to my farms. ………………….. ………………….. Elms and willows lend shades to my rear eaves; Peach and plum trees decorate my front hall. Distance blurs the village from sight, Wrapt in mist and smoke rising from the chimneys. Dogs bark in the narrow lanes; Cocks crow atop the mulberry trees. No dust or turmoil in this homestead; Plenty of freedom in the unadorned rooms. Long, long was I confined in a cage; Now I have returned to nature once more Ref: The Taoist Vision: A Study of T'ao Yuan-ming's Nature Poetry I have a book of his poems by David Hinton, The Selected Poems of T'ao Ch'ien also check out another I have: The Mountain Poems of Hsieh Ling-Yun

This gets periodically reported and I have even had it happen. I don't recall anyone figuring out why. I simply had to get them much smaller than 2mb till they finally uploaded.

This is Chu Ci (楚辞)... probably should be translated as songs (or verses) of Chu... but as Chu was a 'southern state' this is often translated as Songs of the South. The author, Qu Yuan, was a famous poet of Chu and much of his writings reveal the shamanistic culture or past ideas. Look up his connection to the Dragon Boat Festival and the eating of Zong zi... I've got some links on my other computer which I can send to you later...

And they were often 'mending their nets'...

I wish I had the time to post in such threads... the membership issues are incredibly time consuming... and the games people play... 1. The OP is not qualified for this topic, claimed a year ago to know nothing of this..yet we are here to deal with amateur translates from a chinese wiki... called Baidu. It is embarrassing to say the least... but here we are... 2. Steve attempted some relief but the good guy he is stepped back... 3. Daeliun, this should be your topic to discuss... you have too many ideas which you keep in your back pocket until someone posts about something... 4. Vitalii has spoken directly and rightly... about his lineage ideas... many great ideas and past topics... but I found some counter ideas from others which I wish we could hear again (ie: opendao)... 5. Goldisheavy is the furthest along, IMO... although he wants to say that Daeliun's unity with nature is really a transcendence of nature... is still caught up in nature... It is neither in the end... Maybe someone has something to share beyond all this... but I suspect we are getting outside of this miserable topic anyways.

see the comments around: The seat of the celestial bureaucracy of the gods And this: The Imperial Astrologer - Esoteric Astrology in the Light of Ancient Chinese Knowledge And try to find: Very interesting explanation on the Dipper. THE GREAT ONE, WATER, AND THE LAOZI: NEW LIGHT FROM GUODIAN BY SARAH ALLAN, Dartmouth College

Pinning this topic... maybe it will revive with more interesting Q&A.

yea, but for some it is a cycle of reincarnation...