dawei

So how to reconcile the above... it would seem to imply the Zen stories missed the mark by emphasizing we are everything else? But it may be a referential issue on some level... Meaning, the Zen stories may be a [physical, manifest] finger pointing to Not One as an understanding of False as False.

By these definitions you give above... then you've set them backwards... according to heavy and light, they should be: Earth = heavy = YANG Heaven = light = YIN The ancient cosmologies which talk about the separation of energy in the beginning essentially say: That which is light rises as Heaven; That which is heavy sinks as Earth... It is curious that Heaven arises before Earth... why this priority? But it is always a matter of relativity between what is being compared. Earth is Yin compared to Sun as Yang.

~~~ ADMIN NOTICE ~~~ I am not sure if anyone here figured it out, but Sheboar was Paul with a new account he created after being suspended. The accounts are merged and banned. This is the end ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The bigger issue, and we went through this before... is that the source is a chinese wiki-like page... Most would be better off picking a book and posting a discussion of its actual practice and method.

Football's favorite flops...

See some of the links provided here and if it produces more specific questions or direction for this thread: http://thetaobums.com/topic/35522-cultivation-of-the-mind/

On TTB: http://thetaobums.com/topic/32757-cultivating-the-tao-by-fabrizio/ http://thetaobums.com/topic/18847-liu-i-ming-18th-century-taoist-adept/

AH... I didn't realize this was the Cantong qi (The Seal of the Unity of Three). http://www.goldenelixir.com/jindan/zyctq.html http://www.goldenelixir.com/jindan/ctq_index.html I hope you start a thread on it as this would be interesting to talk about.

Spot on. Nicely said.

Please see these threads: http://thetaobums.com/topic/32430-neidan-vs-qigong/ http://thetaobums.com/topic/25984-xing-and-ming-essence-and-life-in-the-ddj/ http://thetaobums.com/topic/32406-building-the-foundation-and-inner-alchemy/ http://thetaobums.com/topic/32561-the-teaching-of-quanzhen/ Realize that this idea has a long history and most talk from the more modern approaches as mentioned in the threads. But one would almost have to define the actual system, teaching, or tradition they are talking about when referring to this cultivation. The Nei Yeh is an old work : http://thetaobums.com/forum/256-nei-yeh/ But it may differ if your talking Taoist Yoga, visualizing spirits practices, various alchemy teachings, ancient sages, etc. The history is incredibly varied but has a common thread... which I hope you'll know the goal is not about the mind but spirit...

I want to get a standard started for interviews whereby there is at least a brief bio/background. It can be a free-form kind of write-up or simple answers to three questions: 1. What teaching/system/lineage has the interviewee been exposed to? 2. What form of practices has the interviewee been exposed to? (qigong, alchemy, Taiji, shamanism, magic, etc) 3. What is the interviewees most recent (last few years) interest in energy arts, self-cultivation, or spiritual practices? Ideally, If we can get this for the 'gathering of questions' stage it might help people come up with questions. I would like to keep it to a very minimum but any comments on welcomed on this.

but that seems to be but a human-to-human variation on the Zen stories: “What is Buddha?” “three pounds of flax” A monk asked Zhaozhou, "Why did the ancestral founder come from the west? Zhaozhou replied, "The cypress tree in front of the hall." I am thinking: If we need the gimmick to remind ourselves.... there is still 'self' on some level. But it may be a 'practice' at first.

Jump starting a few potential questions. Although FLowing Hands has spoken to most of these issues already, they are scattered across posts, threads, etc... but hopefully it will generate some questions. SELF-CULTIVATION and SPIRITUAL PRACTICES: You once said, " I once had the great honor to speak with an Immortal called 'The Old Wise Immortal of Flowering Blossom Mountain', he had been an Immortal for over 100,000 years! We know that spiritual, and energy practices stretch back a very long way" - What are some of the most original or oldest practices which we can use today? - While there is much talk of Qigong vs Neigong vs alchemy practices... Can you recommend and comment on self-cultivation and spiritual practices? What would be a minimum for anyone? Can you get specific into higher practices people can do alone or should they only do beyond the basic with a master? - Dao Xin: You have often talked about this being one of the most important issues in self-cultivation. Can you explain this? (maybe answered above) - Semen retention and Celibacy practices: Do you have any recommendations on this? Most of the practices known originate with Mantak Chia. ALCHEMY PRACTICES: You once said, "You cannot refine Qi to shen". There is much written/translated/discussed about practices which have been called visualization or alchemy practices. What can you say about this? DDJ: The five themes in the DDJ you mentioned before: 1 the self 2 the female principle 3 the spirit/ energy 4 politics and human wisdom 5 enlightenment and spiritual cultivation Can you comment briefly on each? You once said, "If one wants to become enlightened one really only needs these two chapters, (1 and 52): Can you briefly comment on the main point you would make? You once said the DDJ is "deeply rooted shamanistic cultural. His writings are not philosophy but reflections on a belief system and observations that encompassed all things." Is it also a political treatise for the ruler (as a reflection of a belief system for ruling)? Is it also for self-cultivation and spiritual practice? Which chapters do you recommend beyond 1 and 52? SPIRITS AND IMMORTALS: You once said: "The Buddha's may live in the western paradise but they have to come under the control of the Daoist Heaven. We must remember that some of the Daoist Immortals predate even the existence of our Earth. I do know there are far more ancient masters that are Immortals that generally people have never heard of." Can you comment more on this? You once said: "I have communicated with Quan Yin on many occasions over the years, as one of my Masters was her student (Chi Tien Da Shen). Her Pure Path Sect has practices that help people to further themselves towards Bhudda-hood. Quan Yin is the Goddess of great mercy and she will help people or any life if they are sincere in their asking. She lives in the Southern Heaven, ie one would look up to the sky to the South. She is a real spiritual entity and I do know some stories and first hand accounts of her Temple in Melaka, Malaysia, as well as my own experiences. " Can you share more about her? ENLIGHTENMENT: You once said, "A spiritual entity is energy without a physical body. An Immortal is a energy entity that is extremely powerful. Cultivating this energy and a pure heart is the path to true enlightenment. This can be taught by an Immortal Master." For those who cannot have a master, what do you recommend they focus their spiritual practice on? PRIMORDIAL WORLD AND MANIFESTATION: You once said: "the primordial energy that exists and is the basis of the Tao and is ever present in all things. Qi is passed on like a chain, like a chain of cells, they are neither post or pre heaven. The terms misleads and obscures a true understanding. All life is a link in this chain, the chain joins us all together, whatever life we are. The qi we have is all post settlement of the earth when the environment was right for life to form. The qi is post big bang. What we do with this and how we cultivate this afterwards is then another matter. The chain of qi is then passed on to another life by the chain of DNA. We do not acquire qi if we are part of the chain and all life is, we can only enhance what we have as part of that chain. " You have stated there is no such thing really as pre- and post-heaven Qi... how do you describe or explain or name the power that can be exhibited by high level practitioners or masters? Is that only from the 'chain of Qi' or is it a spiritual power (not a energetic power) ?

Articles collapsed into General. FYI: Taoist Magic collapsed into Taoist.

Do some searching... you'll be pleasantly surprised at the truth of it... You can PM me if you need an explanation.

Elitist pronounces die hard... but don't last long...

Some of us find stillness in motion... others only see motion or stillness... when the eyes are open, it's all gray matter

I would agree a construct.. which is what Confucian excelled at. Those who talk of 'cultivation of the mind' are more Confucian based and know this is the gate to morality and ethical development.... construct begets more construct... Those who understand 'cultivation of the heart-mind' are more Daoist based and know this is the gate to the spiritual development. http://www.taoiststudy.com/content/discourse-upon-taoist-theory-and-practice-internal-alchemy-xuezhi-hu

a few links: Wu: non-existence You: existence http://www.dynamictao.com/dynamictao_main.html http://www.philosophy.hku.hk/ch/You-wu.htm http://books.google.com/books?id=F06FKmKKIXwC&pg=PA49&lpg=PA49&dq=wu+and+you+in+laozi&source=bl&ots=E6bCN_4PmU&sig=s-bvs7N7Jxmjtmk9-dB7LWIWF8U&hl=en&sa=X&ei=TYW9U5uiGZCMyATs7IGgAQ&ved=0CEgQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=wu%20and%20you%20in%20laozi&f=false

Yes, not to take away from a good post... but the neigong aspect was 'duh' to me. Many lineages try to hide the internal teaching but will show the external methods... When the Tai Ji masters were called to the non-Chinese ruling court to teach them Tai Ji they decided to hide the neigong teaching and taught the external methods to the court ... rather than die for refusing to come. Yang Chengfu's "The Ten Essentials" has: 'Internal and External unite'; 'insubstantial vs substantial'; 'stillness in motion', etc. In philosophy, it is the steady state of Xuan, between Wu and You (Marblehead will maybe get this). In Mo Pai (can't believe I am saying this), it is probably that state similar to between Sleep and Awake. But one cannot just consider it reductionism or the mix or merge or blend of two states into One... It is more like "Not Two; Not One"... IT is the same basic goal as alchemy. Wu --------- O ----------- You Insubstantial ----------- O ------------- Substantial Internal ------------ O --------------- External This 2-D does not do it justice... even a 3-D vanishing point is not quite right.

Following your point.... Looking at the opening lines: High Virtue is self-negating; the absence [of force] reveals [the force]. Low Virtue is lacking thereof: lacking proper force which would be absence; so it is artificial. Thus, Lose Dao and you end up with artificial, human endeavor [force]... which is to say that whatever arises is actually lacking proper force. Lose Dao and everything that follows is but artificial and forced... thus, you inevitably lose that too. In the end, I am re-stating what you say and I understand it.

Would you say this is the idea of: "Not Two; Not One" ?

As an uncarved block... http://taoism.about.com/od/glossaryoftaoistterms/g/Pu.htm

Well... the opening lines on De are basically about self-negation or lack thereof... Robert Moss said in his Laozi translation.notes: The stanza describes social degeneration as the devolution of values—descending by stages from disinterested nonreciprocal benefit to others (lines 1–2) to favor done for favor, in sheer calculation of return—until it reaches the real object of its critique: li, ritual, which means to Laozi the complete externalization and hence falsification of human relations.5 Ritual, cherished by all Confucians, entails exchange through mutual obligation: one side acts, and must act demonstratively (as in adornment) in expectation of reciprocal favor—indeed in order to oblige favor. Thus coercion is implicit in ritual.6 The strongest refutation of this stanza’s view is found in the opening chapter of the Book of Ritual: “The Way, virtue, benevolence, righteousness—all depend on ritual for their achievement.”7 Unlike li (ritual), de (virtue) is an inner quality. In Analects 9.17, de is contrasted with se (appearance, appeal, countenance): “I have yet to find one who loves the inner quality so much as the outward show.” Confucius, too, was suspicious of the tendency of ritual to mere display, but he only argued for greater frugality and simplicity in ritual. Mozi followed Confucius on this point. Laozi, on the other hand, opposes ritual in toto and never speaks of reforming it. Water exemplifies Laozi’s social ideal: “Perfect mastery works like water” (stanza 8). Water performs its service in common, humble, self-sacrificing fashion; obligating no one, it is scarcely noticed and demands no thanks. This is “high virtue.” “Low virtue” seeks its reward from people, from heaven, or from the ancestral gods. The chapter “Lie Yukou” in the Zhuangzi elaborates on some of the themes in this stanza.Compare,for example, the phrase “There is no crime greater than virtue conscious of itself ” (zei moda hu de youxin). Footnote: 5. The five stages of devolution—the Way, virtue, human kindness, honorable service, and ritual (Dao, de, ren, yi, li)—may mimic and even mock devolution theories of the five elements. 6. A passage from Zhuangzi’s “Zhibeiyou” reads: “Ritual is the bedecking of the Way and the source of social disorder. Thus it was said, ‘Pursue the Way by unlearning day by day.’” This interesting Zhuangzi passage suggests that the puzzling words qianshi may not belong in the text at all; it also shows that two Laozi references—to this stanza and to stanza 48—were cited as authority and related to one another by the author of the “Zhibeiyou.”

I would say The Pit is Way Off Topic enough It's just that people don't like to play nice once in the Pit