dawei

I tried to ignore this... but it took 13 posts of reading first

I know it was his words and meant his bad choice of words... sorry I was not clear Interesting you mentions magnets. In my reply I wrote up an analogy to magnets as a better example, but then just deleted it...

Brian's meaning is quite clear to those whose native tongue is English... but there are times when I wonder He meant an Italian translated it into English. And he is saying that someone whose native tongue is English should translate the meaning to English... to get that right phrase or meaning. just as you translated the other post about drinking alcohol and to not get drunk is to be a "hero". In english, it is a bit silly to say it that way. It just means that a native will intuit a phrase as meaningful or not much easier than a non-native. I hope you can bear with some of this as it should be helpful.

Agreed.. as if they were two alpha males in the same spraying area... but they are not this way. Maybe just a bad choice of words.

It simply has to have meaning in the native tongue as Brian says... and if it can convey a deeper or the deepest meaning then all the better. It is actually a very ordinary translation with exact meaning in the examples I gave. I hope you can come to see that.

Yes... There are some great examples like that when one uses a dictionary and forgets to consider logic and reason and rational meaning.... ah meaning... now there is an idea...

Ain't that True !

Except in English, "All True" just sounds funny The more common and better sounding and more accurately conveying are: “Complete Reality” or “Complete Perfection” or "Complete Realization" or “Perfect Realization” That says it... "All True" is almost meaningless.

This is really great stuff. For too many years, I read the OT and NT with a zeal... and everyone in-between, for better or worse (Augustine, Luther, Calvin, John Bunyan, Wesley, Whitefield, Watchman Nee, Francis Schaeffer, John MacArthur, C.S. Lewis, Charles Colson... the reformed theologians captivated me (Louis Berkhof, B.B. Warfield, Charles Spurgeon, A.W. Pink)... But in the end, what opened my eyes the most were those in the "Jews for Jesus" movement. I read everything I could from them and realized much of what your sharing here. I had never heard of 'sensus plenior' till this thread but that was what really grabbed me... and the lack of understanding this by the masses eventually lead me to walk away from it all.

Excellent point... I cannot think of anyone outside of the apostolic age who influenced doctrine and thought more... Much of what we hear about Christianity seems but a footnote to Augustine.

I think I finally found an excuse to actually try out my chart in combination with all the good info you and your thread provides!

As I pondered this further, the problem in assigning and ascribing is that is it not 1 or 2 dimension... but one needs about 7+ dimensions of information to accurately capture any historical practice, teaching, school, etc... So I used a rubic's cube kind of idea (or OLAP database idea). If you envision the cube, you have six sides; thus one creates six lists which can then each be rotated to the viewing side and more than one item can be rotated to that side from the same list. But there is no limit to each list nor the amount of lists. Here is my rather lengthy examples... and they are just examples as the lists could be scrubbed and expanded beyond our wants and dreams... but the idea, in the end, is that one would select from each list (one to many) to define their practice or method. Lists: 1. Terms a. Qigong b. Waigong c. Neigong d. Waidan e. Neidan f. Alchemy g. Shen h. Yang Shen i. Yin Shen j. Yuan Shen k. Jing l. Yuan Jing m. Qi n. Yin Qi o. Yang Qi p. Yuan Qi q. Yangsheng r. Xing s. Ming 2. Branches a. Taoist b. Buddhist c. Confucian d. Tibetan e. Japanese f. Thai g. Malaysian h. Korean 3. Historical a. Shamanistic b. Religious c. Martial d. Medical e. Qigong f. Celestial Masters g. Taiqing h. Shangqing i. Lingbao j. Zhong-Lu k. Nanzong (Southern line) l. Beizong (Northern line) m. Zhongpai (Central branch) n. Xipai (Western branch) o. Dongpai (Eastern branch) p. Longmen (Dragon Gate) q. Quanzhen r. Wu-Liu s. Shaolin t. Wudong 4. Body-Meridians-Vessels-Chakras a. 3 dan tians b. 12 meridians c. 8 vessels d. 7 chakras e. Other energy locations 5. Energy Work a. Meditation i. Sitting with attention/mindful ii. Sitting with intention/focused/visualization iii. Sitting with mantras, trance or spiritual iv. Sitting with movement v. Sitting and forgetting vi. Transcendental vii. Walking viii. Gazing/Absorbing ix. Yoga x. Tibetan xi. Kundalini xii. Qigong b. Practices i. Five Animals ii. Eight Pieces of Brocade iii. Six Healing Sounds iv. Muscle Tendon Change v. Bone Marrow Cleansing vi. Soaring Crane vii. Wild Goose viii. White Crane ix. Dragon and Tiger x. Yang Taiji xi. Chen Taiji xii. Wu Taiji xiii. Ba Gua Zhang xiv. Pulling down the heavens xv. Embracing the moon xvi. MCO – fire xvii. MCO – water xviii. MCO – wind xix. MacroCO xx. Daoyin xxi. Tuna xxii. Jingzou xxiii. Zazen xxiv. Wuji stance xxv. Santi stance xxvi. Hunyuan stancexxvii. Horse stance 6. Transmutation-Trancendence-Awareness a. Restore Jing b. Transmute Jing to Qi c. Transmute Qi to Shen d. Transmute Shen to Void e. Transmit Shen to LDT f. Fusion of Yin and Yang g. Embryonic Breathing h. Inner Embryo & Gods i. Turning the Light j. Opening third eye k. Gradual l. Sudden m. Awakening n. Enlightenment

Great idea... I'm going to try to utilize it in this way. You didn't say why you picked PC6 or LU7... I saw a pattern until you said SM11... the first two are Luo Connecting points. I created this chart some time ago to keep track of the Energy points: Jing-Well points are where the qi bubbles up. Jing-Well points are indicated to revive consciousness. Jing-Well points are known to treat fullness below the Heart and clear Heat. Ying-Spring points are where the qi dribbles down the meridian. Ying-Spring points are indicated for heat in the body and changes in the complexion. Ying-Spring points are known to clear heat from the meridian. Shu-Stream points are where the qi starts to pour down the meridian. They are known to alleviate heaviness and pain in the joints. On Yin Meridians, Shu-Stream points are identical to the actions of Yuan-Source points. Jing-River points are where the qi of the meridian begins to flow more heavily. They are known to treat cough and asthma due to pathogenic cold or heat. He-Sea points are where the qi of the meridian collects and goes deep into the body. He-sea points are known to indicated treat rebellious qi and diarrhea. Luo-Connecting points of one meridian can communicate with two meridians. Xi-Cleft point is the site where the Qi of the meridian is deeply converged. Qi and blood are stored deeply at these particular points. If there appear abnormal reactions at X-Cleft points, it shows that the pathogens have entered the deeper parts of Zang-Fu organs. Thus, they are used for acute, painful symptoms, inflammation, protracted diseases of its pertaining meridian and Zang-Fun organ. Also, Xi-Cleft points of the Yin meridians have hemostatic functions. Yuan-Source points are the sites where the Yuan (Primary) qi of the Zang-Fu organs passes and stays. Puncturing the Yuan-Source points stimulates the vital energy of the regular meridians http://www.rootdown.us/Points/PointBrowse.aspx?EnergeticPropertyID=2

you have a great and simple explanation which I had not thought of... nice to see my intuition on this confirmed so easily.

I was going to answer, when there is no 'you' to ask... but I see you answered that already

Timely topic I was pondering the somewhat schizophrenic state of these terms. There is not much agreement as to exactly how the associations are related. I think the problem was introduced with the relatively modern term 'Qigong' as prior to that there were many specific terms used to define specific methods; but even some of those methods are not agreed upon but it was probably clearer on some level. I think a similar example would be the introduction of the word Daoism; look at the debate as to what that means and encompasses . People are very quick to get beyond that word to describe the kind of Daoism they want to define to cover their interest. Despite the anachronism this creates, I tend to believe there were 'men of dao' before any word was literally defined. But how to deal with the Qigong/Neigong/Waigong/Neidan/Waidan/Alchemy pinwheel... Here is what I would favor in terms of pure simplicity... not that it is the accepted structure but one which I think would gain the most acceptance. We use the words in their simplest form first (kind of Occam Razor approach): Qigong - Energy Work. Highest parent which can include any energy work Waigong - Focuses on external methods Neigong - Focuses on internal methods Alchemy - Focus on transmutation and/or transcendence Neidan - Alchemy which focuses on internal methods Waidan - Alchemy which focuses on external methods The reason this would never gain acceptance is that it still cannot capture all the variations in history, schools, classifications, etc. Too often, a few of the above are involved not just one. And the same term will be used differently too. As one author stated: "Pregadio cautions that despite the dramatic similarities with the Inner Alchemical practices that follow we should not simply equate early Daoist meditational regimes and the self-conscious Inner Alchemy of the Song dynasty on. Indeed, the de-divinization of body gods is one of the defining elements of Inner Alchemy. As Pregadio puts it: “the notion of generating an inner embryo is not a neidan innovation,” while reminding that “The image of the embryo changes according to the understanding of neidan itself.” This is fair warning that it will be impossible to align historical unfolding of methods and align them with ease. As well, what we think is first or second may not be as we believe. For example: While most everyone says that Waigong (and Waidan) come before Neigong (and Neidan), I don't believe that... it seems illogical on some level to me... but that may be another post/thread point to make... Edit: Forgot to provide this link. http://thetaobums.com/topic/12458-the-difference-between-chi-kung-and-nei-kung/ One statement I agree with is:

I have not tried that. I can understand if you press at the point of pain but when do you press somewhere other than the pain and which point do you choose to press along the channel? There are points along each channel for very specific uses so wondering what experience you have?

According to Chinese Medical QIgong, English language edition published in 2010, the above was discovered in 1975 excavations in Qinghai province and dates to the Majiayao period (5000 years ago). This Shaman is said to be performing the "gulping Qi" or "turtle breathing" to exercise inhalation and expiration. Others think it is the "standing meditation" posture. In either case, what is interesting to me is the ancient stillness practice it reveals as there is more evidence of primitive dances and exercises, including Daoyin.

In the Primordial Breathing, Vol. 1, it is more like a prescription where one can use any one of the six sounds as needed: T'ai Hsi Mi Yao Ko Chueh The Secret Songs about the Embryonic Breath Secret (P. 49-50) The Six Kinds of Breathing: When practicing the six kinds of breathing, if you feel that there is a difference, then you should stop. Do not do it in excess. Your mind and breath would be damaged by overdoing it. The six kinds of breathing are as follows: (1) The Hsi. The Hsi method is the most magic and it should be kept (secret). It belongs to the nose externally and internally to the lungs. If you feel cold, hot, tired, stuffy or have skin diseases you will surely get rid of such unpleasantness by using this kind of breathing. (2) The Ho. Ho belongs to the Ruler of the heart. It rules the tongue. Whenever you feel the inside of your mouth is dry and rough, or you feel anxious or your body is hot, you should look at the degree of ailment and use the Ho breathing to curse it. The lack of harmony of the cooking vessels and the viscera will naturally disappear. (3) The Hu. Hu belongs to the Spleen. its spirit rules the earth. If you are anxious, or stuffy or you abdomin is puffed up and your limbs are swollen, or if you have a stuffiness that is hard to open up, use the Hu breathing to handle this. You will then be as good as before. (4) The Hsu: Hsu belongs to the liver. Its spirit rules the eyes. If you have red eyes and tears come down as if you are crying. It is all because the heat in your liver is rushing upward. Use the Hsu breathing to handle this. You will quickly or soon see the difference. (5) The Ch'ui. Ch'ui belongs to the kidneys. It rules the ears. If your loins, your waist, or knees are often cold, or if the flow of Yang (sperm) is stopped, you should subtly use the Ch'ui to handle this. Do not go outside and seek medicine. (6) The Hsi. Hsi belongs to the three cooking vessels. Whenever there is an ailment relating to the three cooking vessels, the three cooking vessels are injured by unharmonious breath. Just use the Hsi to handle this. Source: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0944558003/ref=pd_rvi_gw_2/104-6162634-2030307?ie=UTF8

I would only suggest that this is one interpretation based on the type of breathing going on in that example. Meaning: There are so many different breathing techniques and methods; how they employ various metaphors may differ. For example: 1. Sitting and forgetting 2. Embryonic breathing 3. Producing the sacred Embryo 4. MCO (circulation) 5. Xing vs Ming Gong How each one might use what appears to be the same item, whether the Heel or the location of the Dan Tians and what resides there, may differ...

If you want to read something on Embryonic Breathing, refer to Yang's Book: It includes maybe 100 translations of ancient texts as well. http://www.amazon.com/Qigong-Meditation-Embryonic-Yang-Jwing-Ming/dp/1886969736/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1384872073&sr=8-1&keywords=embryonic+breathing In the Primordial Breathing, Vol. 1 is an interesting interpretation I had not seen before: Chen Ch'I Huan Yuan MIng The Carved (Text) on the Recovery of the Genuine Breath with a Commentary by Ch'ing Ming Tzu (P. 109-111) There is a sequence described as: 1. Close your eyes, sit level 2. Tighten your fists and close your eyes 3. Inhale through the thatched hut (nose) 4. And exhale through the heaven's Gate (mouth) 5. The breath should enter very subtly 6. Breathe out Continuously. Use the thought to lead the breath 7. It revolves in the viscera and the receptacles 8. Exhale it then with Ho (Heart sound) 9. Let the blood and the breath circulate thoroughly 10. If it is not harmonious, send it away to the heel 11. Do the Ho exhalation five or six times. 12. No Diseases will not be alleviated. The interpretation of 'send it away to the heel' is to send it to the Lower Dan Tian (LDT). Here is how the interpretation equates Heel to LDT by the 'heel' meaning as a metaphor and not literal: The heel is the base/root of the foot. Man's life root is the LDT ("sea of breath"). As the context talks of, in the case of disharmony (evil breath exists and needs to be settled), that embryonic breathing is needed. Thus, to 'send it away to the heel' means to send it to the 'root of breathing', the 'sea of breathing'; The LDT. Using an analogy, it continues by saying "primitive animals like snakes, crawl on their underbellies which is therefore their primitive "heel". In man, the underbelly is the lower TAN T'IEN where "THE SEA OF BREATH" is located, therefore the 'primitive heel'". Source: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0944558003/ref=pd_rvi_gw_2/104-6162634-2030307?ie=UTF8

I have actually seen many places where Jen seems synonymous with Ren... but don't know why they don't just use Ren. I don't think it is simply a reverting to Wades-Giles notation as in many passages one sees Ren... and then Jen... But, IMO, it does mean Ren as context dictates it. Examples I found: Sheng Jen = Sheng Ren Sage, or Chen Jen = Zhen Ren = Realized Being

The Straw Dogs has a history of use and served a temporal function. Here are the historical references to Straw Dogs: 1. Huang Di: He put them over the door as a symbol of evil doers, or maybe as a reminder to 'be good'. This could derive from the idea that despite they are the first domesticated animal, they were buried with the dead and that might of been to ward off evil spirits (or a watch dog in the afterlife). The Zhou mention them as warding off disease. 2. Zhuangzi: He talks of their ceremonial use but shows they need to be burned after the ritual to prevent the accumulated evil Qi from spreading anywhere. They are trampled on afterwards. This is the most common story known. 軷 - A chariot riding over an animal. Seems an original tale for trampling on them after the ceremony. 3. Laozi: He juxtaposes them with a bellows between Heaven and Earth... If we tie in the ritual funeral meaning: every sacrifice is an act of renewal, a cycle of life; cyclic and empty... and why does Heaven and Earth endure? (DDJ7) 4. Huainanzi: Says dogs are a symbol of the king...

Probably this: I was taught a trick to see how clear the Taiji Pole is... 1. Press both eyes inward for about 10 seconds (you will see patterns similar but not as fantasy colors) 2. Cover both eyes with your palms 3. Note any dark circle and if there is a light in the middle or dispersed, etc...

It is about inner seeing and inner sensing. Like Dao is the host and you are the servant. You simply 'know' what needs to be done at the banquet of life.