dawei

And another link: http://www.taoiststudy.com/content/zhong-l%C3%BC-chuan-dao-ji-%E9%90%98%E5%91%82%E5%82%B3%E9%81%93%E9%9B%86%E9%92%9F%E5%90%95%E4%BC%A0%E9%81%93%E9%9B%86 The Zhong Lü Chuan Dao Ji (鐘呂傳道集/钟吕传道集; Anthology of the Transmission of the Dao from Zhong[li Quan] to Lü [Dongbin]) is associated with Zhongli Quan (second century C.E.?) and Lü Dongbin (ninth century C.E.), two of the legendary Eight Immortals. It is part of the so-called “Zhong-Lü” (鍾呂) textual tradition of internal alchemy (neidan). The text, which probably dates from the late Tang (618-906) dynasty, is in question-and-answer format, containing a dialogue between Lü and his teacher Zhongli on aspects of alchemical terminology and methods. The book Zhong Lü Chuan Dao Ji lists five classes of immortals: Guǐxiān ("Ghost Immortal"): A person who cultivates too much yin energy. These immortals are likened to Vampires because they drain the life essence of the living, much like the fox spirit. Ghost immortals do not leave the realm of ghosts. Rénxiān (“Human Immortal”): Humans have an equal balance of yin and yang energies, so they have the potential of becoming either a ghost or immortal. Although they continue to hunger and thirst and require clothing and shelter like a normal human, these immortals do not suffer from aging or sickness. Human immortals do not leave the realm of humans. [21] There are many sub-classes of human immortals. Dìxiān (“Earth Immortal”): When the yin is transformed into the pure yang, a true immortal body will emerge that does not need food, drink, clothing or shelter and is not effected by hot or cold temperatures. Earth immortals do not leave the realm of earth. These immortals are forced to stay on earth until they shed their human form. Shénxiān ("Spirit Immortal"): The immortal body of the earthbound class will eventually change into vapor through further practice. They have supernatural powers and can take on the shape of any object. These immortals must remain on earth acquiring merit by teaching mankind about the Tao. Spirit immortals do not leave the realm of spirits. Once enough merit is accumulated, they are called to heaven by a celestial decree. Tiānxiān (“Celestial Immortal”) – Spirit immortals who are summoned to heaven are given the minor office of water realm judge. Over time, they are promoted to oversee the earth realm and finally become administrators of the celestial realm. These immortals have the power to travel back and forth between the earthly and celestial realms.

I tried to google something but most talk in very general ways. Bruce Frantzis's website blog has this: http://www.taichimaster.com/longevity-breathing/longevity-breathing-a-wise-man-breathes-from-the-heels/

You are generally correct.. we just need a good translation to english to clear the air. These four lines are parallel in structure and meaning... that is the logic to translating and understanding it: 饮酒不醉是英豪 - To drink but not be drunk (be intoxicated), one is advanced (higher control over formalities) 恋色不迷最为高 - To be in love but not be controlled by it, is most high (higher control over sensual emotions) 不义之财不可取 - To wrongly take wealth yet do not take it. (higher control over wealth/avarice) 有气不生气自消 - To have a feeling yet not be angry, the anger has been eliminated from oneself (higher control over strong emotions) Edit: Original third line and basic meaning: If wealth can be wrongly taken, don't take it

In general, for myself, any breathing going heel-to-head or head-to-heel will usually pause at the heart to merge with heart Qi (which is the governor of the body), and then begin the exhale and exit (whichever gate I want). I was pleasantly surprised to find that the Taoist Yoga sequence essentially does this too. If you can share another method, that would be good to hear. I learned it from my practices which have been Medical Qigong oriented, but also from Taiji where grounding the heels is important and opening the KD1. I consider the heels simply one of many gates which can be breathed through. (besides the feet,hands, crown and root, one can also consider the mingmen, solar plexus, heart, shendao as gates)... I think the heels are considered higher because of its proximity to the earth (yin Qi) when drawing from below, and it represents the full-body pass if the inhale is from the crown (yang Qi). In purging Qi, like say with sounds, the Qi needs a 'path out' and the heels are the path to use. So I can see the importance of the heel as a gate but for myself, the development of the sensitivity of the hands for Medical Qigong makes that an important gate too. When filling the LDT, I tend to use the crown gate on inhale. If doing the MCO, then one usually 'locks' the perineum area to prevent anything going to the heels. My personal experience is that my legs and heels are often the most active part of my body in terms of Qi twitching/jumping/prickly feeling when I do most any kind of energy work (singles or pairs) or when someone works on me. I have practiced opening my KD1 and have even had 'heel pricks' done to move any stagnate Qi out. As I type this, I just stopped, inhaled through the crown, stopped at the heart, and exhaled it through my legs... my legs from the knees downward has a prickly feeling in about 50 places and I feel the heels warm-up... Now I breath in my heels, stop at my heart and breath out my palms... my palms warm up. So one can feel the effect in the first breath. I will add this: The Qi feelings in my legs which I mentioned have given me some issues in the past. I would wake up with way too much Qi in my lower legs with almost a numb feeling. It was very active yet felt like it was not able to move where it wanted. I had to develop a circulation method using my heels, up to the belt vessel, around back, and then down to the heels extending several feet away... doing this about 5 times always cleared my legs before I got up out of bed.

Is that the 'soul retrieval' in his materials? Edit to answer my own question after looking it up: Yes.

I am not sure I follow your comment of whole body; Do you mean spontaneously everywhere at once or more linear like you state in the next sentence? Not sure of your first sentence. Are you saying "don't" as in wrong or as you isn't this the way to do it? IMO, heel breathing as a practice means the heels are a gate; as are the hands, crown, root, etc. You can inhale and/or exhale through any gate. Breathing through these gates is explained in many works; the Taoist Yoga book sequence shows how the feet and hands are used as part of the sequence. Yang's books talks about these gates as well. If you mean whole body as in everywhere at once, I think that is ZZ's meaning and is the result/outcome of fully achieving whole body breathing (more like breathing everywhere at once--skin breathing).

Having been in very conservative christian circles for too many years, I can tell you it is a pot shot based on which doctrinal allegiance your church holds. Some history: - The catholic church puts man in a perpetual need of redemption through confession and works. - St. Augustine said that it was about God's predestination as preparation and grace as a donation. - Thomas Aquinas tried to balance free will and predestination - Luther said it was by grace not works (words of Paul), through faith. - Calvin's T.U.L.I.P. doctrines amount to 'once saved always saved'... but it's more God's decision as an act of predestination. - The Arminian's countered with complete free will and you can lose salvation - Some other groups, but including some of the above, believed in baptismal regeneration; You must be literally baptized to be saved. The main difference is usually told as predestination vs free will; and sometimes as works vs grace. The subtle and deeper meaning is whether regeneration (salvation) occurs prior to man's display of faith or as a result of it...

And here it is for download: http://liquidbigublog.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/daoist_body.pdf This topic has really revived my interest in the sounds. Nice job.

I recall some sort of documentary on him and remember how very sad and tragic his life seemed... and it was my impression he was greatly manipulated by others as part of the boxing phase... maybe similarly the way Agassi has admitted how much he hated tennis but was manipulated by others and media attention, etc. I would think his book would be an interesting read.

I can share my practice and teaching. You'll have to decide if it is the expected method(s)... meaning, I don't discount that there is more than one way to implement a breathing practice. Heel Breathing: The idea originally comes from Zhuangzi who said that the true person breaths from the heels while the masses breath from their throats. I tend to think that what he is referring to is different than the later development of the 'heel breathing practice' which focuses on the KD1 point as the entry/exit gate. Due to the reference to a 'true person', I would say the original usage is more about someone who has opened all the channels so that their normal breath flows everywhere, even in and out the heels. So I think this is describing a result or outcome of opening channels. But the practice of heel breathing developed nonetheless. To do it as a practice in many forms; you just need to put your awareness at your heels on inhale... now, you need some purpose for doing this... so where do you want to go with it? What do you want to accomplish? You want to take it into the lower dan tian (LDT), up to the heart, etc, and where do you want to finish the breath? In the LDT, out the hands, out the feet? Or use it as part of a series of breathing steps? So there is a lot you can do since you are just bring it IN from the heels in the most basic practice form. A good supplement is exercises to open the KD1 point/channel. I will attach a 10 step breathing set from Taoist Yoga. Turtle Breathing: The version I learned is the culmination of a set of exercises, so I am not sure if this is what your talking about... but it is much easier to attach a write-up on it so you can first read it. ToaistYoga_Breathing_Set.pdf Turtle_Breathing.pdf

At least a final word should be given to the fact that the practice is called the SIX healing sounds... not the five organ sounds The ultimate goal is to purge excess or stagnate Qi out of the organ/energy container. But we don't want to just act like we're beating a dusty cover where the dust simply re-settles in the same place again. The SIXth Sound is for the triple burner and is "HEEEEEEEE." You can visualize the Taiji Pole as a tunnel with a great wind being pushed from the top to bottom and picking up everything in its wake and pushing it down to the feet and extending away from the body. I would do this a few times to completely purge... this can be done at bedtime to settle the heart and calm the body as it roots the energy centers. Here is how Chia describes it: Lie flat on your back, if possible. With your mouth open, exhale slowly as your produce the sound "HEEEEEEEE." Imagine a huge rolling pin flattening out your body from the forehead down to the toes. This will balance all the energies activated by the other sounds and help relax the body fully. I like to use the Taiji Pole image as it is fundamental to energy work; it connects the energy centers as well as the Chakras. If you practice breathing through the crown (Baihui) to the LDT, the path to take is usually the Taiji Pole. An important consideration which applies to healing is that we are 'giving the Qi a path out'. That means, if you are a patient and someone is doing healing sounds on your, or purging you, you should periodically wiggle your toes and hands... it gives your intention a reminder of where the 'path out' is. And some will feel their legs tingle.

I am now not sure how I interpreted Cat's comments as I read my own again and I have a 'listening to self' assumption. I personally would not just make any sound in any order but I don't discount the fact that the body/innate will deal and work with it. IMO, the advanced version is that one simply listen to what they need, and the need includes an order, and it may not even do all five. One great rule I learned regarding working on others is: What if their body doesn't need what I want to do (ie: some prescribed order of treatment)... and so I think it must be the same for our own body as well. But I think one can do all five but if one is truly listening they may find one wants more and one wants less and when enough is enough.

I considered posting that as a fourth option but it's beyond most, IMO. Those that can do it, just do it. From a teaching point of view, 'order' is good to have. From an energetic awareness point of view, 'listening to self' is enough.

I thought it would be good to talk 'order' for the sounds. There appears at least three potential orders: 1. Five elements, Lungs first: Lungs, Kidney, Liver, Heart, Spleen 2. Five elements, Liver first: Liver, Heart, Spleen, Lungs, Kidney 3. Meridian clock: Lungs, Spleen, Heart, Kidneys, Liver In fact, if I were doing sounds in order, I was taught #2. And I don't think I would do #3 with sounds but I favor it only as a circulation method. I decided to look online to see if people can justify why to use #1 or #2. In both cases, they are really using the same 5 Element Production/Generation order but starting with a different organ. To my surprise, nobody really explains with a solid reason. Most give no reason nor attempt any. A very few attempted to say why Liver *might* be first due to 'spring', 'rebirth', 'new beginnings'. Mantak Chia who wrote a book on the sounds starts with Liver but gives no reason why. Some people reference the ancient texts which show Liver first but I still do not find an explanation... so I will have to give you what I learned and this may reveal some differences between Qigong and Medical Qigong as the basis is more medical. The liver is: http://www.heavenearthchineseherbs.com/store/pc/Liver-Yang-Rising-c6100.htm "The natural direction of the Liver is a rising force. When the Livers energy becomes excessive, especially in reference to the element of heat, the Yang energy naturally rise upwards towards the head. It is important to re-direct the excess heat energy downward by cooling the Liver Organ System, replenishing the lost Yin and draining the heat." If one does not start with the liver, then when you get to the liver, its energy has a tendency to 'spray' about and containment what was just purged. So it was found that starting with the liver ensured that turbid energy spray is cleaned up in later purging of other organs. This may naturally lead to a question about the 'spray' of other organs... well, we have to start somewhere and the liver poses the most potential damage as its spray essentially is upward to the heart.

I want to make sure I didn't mis-convey something... did you take from me the idea to focus on meridians (or do meridian qigong routine) combined with sounds? If yes, then I was not clear about something previously posted. I hold the same point as you stated: "I want to focus directly on the organ at the time." (Or it's energy container area)

That makes sense to start with the lungs; the Luo Shu defined this. Have you done the 'sounds' in clock order as opposed to 5 element order?

Thanks for posting both methods... this is easy enough for anyone to practice it ! I find your grand circulation starting in a different point than what I am accustomed to doing... I find your method interesting as one starts their focus on their heart [energy] and then go to the hands. I want to try this out. Here is my method: Ascending Yin Meridian Breath: On inhale, focus the breath up the inside (yin ascending) of both legs and at the front of the hip cross over to the opposite outer hip. On exhale, focus the breath up the sides and up the insides of the arms to the finger tips. Descending Yang Meridian Breath: On inhale, focus the breath down the outside of both arms and at the shoulders cross over to the opposite outside of armpit. On exhale, focus the breath down the outside of both legs and extend its reach several feet away from the body. On Yin inhale and Yang exhale, I usually focus on KD1 point as the entry and exit. In this way, one can visual a main root extending down into the ground, branching into many roots, similar to a tree. You will see that one fundamental difference is my 'cross over' path. This is to balance left and right; right and left. There is an exercise meant to help open the cross over, particularly to connect the opposing hand palm (PC8) with the foot sole (KD1)... And it has its application in Taiji.

To get more precise, the sounds are for energy stagnation in the organ area... The issue may not be the organ itself but the energy container which the organ resides in... For example: What if a person has their spleen removed yet there is energy stagnation? What is the sound for then?

dwai beat me to the post... I don't follow either. What is an example of "Yin is in one body with respect to yang in another body"

Yes... following from your firsts posts... I've been connecting the dots on this. And I think Cat's 'life skill' figures into it as well.

Nice description. Starts with movement but in the stance, it wants the Qi to 'cause the posture', which is correct. This is 'carrying the ball' in Yi Quan. Palms upwards (bring in heavenly Qi) seems not as common in Taiji where palms are often downward (for earthly Qi)... but I never understood why to make such strong distinctions, so I am glad to see an example which breaks that barrier for the sake of all that is available in Qi... All such stances are part of a series but some take individual stances and focus on them. There is no one winner; no triumphant one over another. You will get out of each one (or the series) what it offers towards what you want out of it. IN the end, you can success in what you want... but realize there is always much, much more offered.

It just depends on what one wants from it. Wuji is creating the calm before the storm. Santi Shi is preparing the storm... Yi Quan is to ride the storm...

As it may explain both our points... maybe we actually agree without knowing it or accepting it... It's just about direction and ascending and descending is the phrase used.

It really depends on your purpose... what do you want from any stance? I view stances from the highest and most basic principle that pressure differential will be created; Qi moves from high pressure to low pressure. So, what do I want out of the stance in terms of physical or energetic results? The Santi Shi, which I have never done but I have done dynamic movements with arms at different heights, appears to me that the pressure differential, Qi path, will be enhanced by having one arm higher than another; meaning, there is a path prescribed by the positions alone. In Hunyuan, the pressure path is what? High to low... and once the arms drop, it is down the arms as well... you will feel it. So, why prefer any standing posture? Depends on what you want out of it. The Hunyuan is but one of a dozen in the series of Yi Quan... done in sequence, the differential path is created to build up sensitivity training... which one to do? Depends on what you want out of it... Do the entire series in sequence is different than doing one or two or three of them. Why not do the simplest, Wuji stance... arms down by the side? Depends on what you want out of it. I can upload the entire Yi Quan sequence if you want...

Baopuzi said that all practice is unnatural... artificial exercises is an apt way of saying it