dawei

It is neigong Alchemy 101. Your trying to equate TCM ideas with neigong alchemy. In youth, we are full and do not need any restoration; when old we restore what has been lost. One has to know the difference between Qigong and Neigong to get this point.

Just to give some quotes: "According to the principles of alchemy, at a young age the human body grows like a young sprout. Borrowing a term from the Daode jing (Book of the Way and its Virtue), this is called “superior virtue.” Spirit and Breath are abundant, and there is no need of performing any practice to build the foundations. After growth and maturity, Essence, Breath, and Spirit become consumed and should be replenished. In the alchemical practice, this is referred to as “inferior virtue”: one must provide what is missing." An alchemical poem says: “Superior virtue has no doing,” and you enter the practice of Xing (Nature): is there any need of repairing or harmonizing what is damaged or full? The Cantong qi says: “Superior virtue has no doing”: it does not use examining and seeking. “Inferior virtue does”: its operation does not rest. “Superior virtue has no doing: it does not use examining and seeking.” Inferior virtue extends life by means of a practice. One begins from effort and ends with stability, and performs the way of “doing”; thus one is able to revert to the Origin. Therefore the Cantong qi says, “Inferior virtue does: its operation does not rest.” -- Fabrizio Pregadio (Wang Mu - Foundations of Internal Alchemy. The Taoist Practice of Neidan)

Do you also equate this to 'doing' is foundational work or even Qigong and 'non-doing' is the alchemy work of Ming and Xing?

It is good to see someone attempt a translation but Vitalii said this was a 'motionless' description and yet it now turns into motion... So it seems it went from Neigong to Waigong to Qigong by changing a line's meaning. Based on this meaning, it would no longer be alchemy neigong, IMO. And I think 心府 may be code for the middle dan tian (energy center) and not just heart. The key to the passage is seeing that Yuan Qi 元气 is mentioned... this means it cannot be understood as translation/meaning in Qigong or Waigong terms... JMO.

yes... that is what the index finger is for... slide mouse wheel downward...

http://thetaobums.com/topic/32356-not-thinking/?p=490839

ok, i get the 'center' idea... good point. But when someone does Qigong or Neigong... what do they care of the center idea? I don't mean to white-wash your point, as I think you are on to something, but in the midst of practice is a geometric center the concentration?

Interesting thought... but as a proximity it must have some relation... but does not explain all three energy centers. Marrow washing vs Muscle Tendon changing is not an ordered issue.... you may not be imply that.... but it is as simple as you say: inward vs outward. Part of the whole. I like the angle your pursuing here but the key, IMO, is the vibrational aspect. For example: If one asks why the hands leading to the Lao Gong (PC-8) or the legs leading to the KD1 point... they are structurally like tuning forks... So your idea of seeing something structural in the pelvis has some merit. But my sense is the marrow and tendon is simply part of the whole.

I think if one is translating in simple chinese then one ends up with discouraged and is thinking method alone. Your use of ashing seems more an outcome/result. I take it to be a kind of wasting of the heart energy. The only possible item I can think of is gazing or absorbing energy. As for stopping thoughts by will... I don't see it as by will any more than falling asleep is by will. Both use the same initial phase... or IMO, should be, if that is the method one wants to pursue.

I have the text and have read it a few times through. I'll PM you.

Under whose guidance or direction? Just reading the text?

I agree with the points made... but as systems/lineages/teachings vary, some may not call it neidan while others might say this is pre-neidan (or qigong). I think the important thing is to understand that systems process and progress. At a later stage, one will realize that linear and sequential thinking applied to practice is non-linear in the end. That is a great point and one which applies to Qigong and Neigong practices... I wish that more people would explain it this plainly. I agree that many systems follow this idea and I would say this is mostly in qigong if this is linear; the non-linear applications are in neigong. Meaning, the regulation comes as a result of a higher practice. Yes. The mistake we often make is to suggest that the system we are following has the one answer... Yes, it is but one answer/method/path/way. Some methods may be more efficient or not; easier or not. less time consuming or not. The most important issue is not whether one is in the right system or not, but rather whether one is in the path of their destiny.

But I would add that the Neidan short-cut of bypassing Qigong is not easily done by oneself... If one has the destiny to do so, and that implies a master or guidance, then it seems good to pursue. Otherwise, I think the majority should just stay with Qigong.

I would recommend you understand Qigong first as that can last you a lifetime of positive benefits. You could chase Neigong your whole life and not ever really get it... but if you really sink into Qigong and 'get it' then you have laid the foundation for the possibility of seeing if your destiny is to pursue Neigong or not. If yes, then a teacher will be there for it. I would recommend a start with Yang's The Root of Qigong: http://www.amazon.com/The-Root-Chinese-Qigong-Enlightenment/dp/1886969507

Here is a paper which some might like to read: http://www.charleschace.com/pdfs/Hui_Ming_Jing-Nicholson.pdf

We explored that a little bit here: http://thetaobums.com/topic/25984-xing-and-ming-essence-and-life-in-the-ddj/ I had written: Foundations of Inner Alchemy: Awakening to Reality Zhang Boduan’s works show that, in his view, 1) the first stage of the alchemical practice (“laying the foundations”) consists of the dual cultivation of Xing (Nature) and Ming (Life). 2) The second stage (“refining Essence to transmute it into Breath”) emphasizes the work on Ming. 3) In the third stage (“refining Breath to transmute it into Spirit”), the work on Xing has priority on the work on Ming. 4) Finally, in the fourth stage (“refining Spirit to return to Emptiness”) one works only on Xing. -- Fabrizio Pregadio But glad to be corrected or given a simpler explanation... your pre-heaven and post-heaven explanations in regards to different goals and different methods are correct, IMO.

I think the light is getting reflected from inside of the right leg to left leg.

My thinking on this system's point is similar to the point made in the thread/discussions about the difference in Qigong and Neigong. The Yin Qi which M.P. (JC) refers to is Primal/Original Yin, or Pre-Heaven Yin. The Yin Qi we most often refer to, interact with, and discuss is really Post-Heaven Qi. JMO. I would say that this is why we have the potential [through methods like alchemy] for the Pre-Heaven Yin Qi.

Based on what your sharing, I don't see why you are starting with reverse breathing to fill the LDT. You want to do normal breathing as is being discussed here: http://thetaobums.com/topic/32414-dantien-sensitivity/ Fill first... Reverse later...

This brings up a curious issue which maybe those with years of clinicals or medical background could comment on... I recall being told that 'cuts' across the mid-section are terribly bad for the normal flow of energy; ergo, for ladies the 'bikini cut' is really not preferred over a vertical cut.

6. Get to know the proper movement of the HuiYin; Expand/collapse with stomach in normal breathing.

If your contracting your abs on inhale, your doing Reverse Abdominal Breathing (RAB)... RAB: Inhale/Contract/Stomach Inwards ; Exhale/Expand/Stomach Outwards. What are you doing with the breath on the inhale and exhale? Where do you take it? That is interesting. Only the dantian vibrates? It might be that the energy is collecting there and affected by the smoking. If it was affecting your nervous system you might be feeling the vibration all over or more like a body hum.

Ever notice that if you have a sore spot on your body, you can focus on it? You can press a finger (or something with more of a point) around your dantian area and then try to focus on the finger to get your mind to stay down there. In fact, I prefer to get the mind to the bottom part of the dantian, near the perineum but you need to poke underneath to do that. Another thing you can try is to follow the breath (more like stay at the front as if leading it) and see it going in and all the way down like an escalator. You want to make sure your not 'thinking' this is lung breathing but bringing the breath all the way down past the chest into the stomach. When it passes the chest area, you can think that some of your heart energy goes along for the ride. Don't stop there, but allow that energy to become a part of what is going downward. If you can pick up some heart energy, then it may help in sensing the energy going down. Steps: 1. Make sure your mind is clear and the body is relaxed. Do a few deep inhales and then hard/fast/strong exhales through the mouth with a wind sound (like deeply exasperated) to help clear yourself. 2. Softly place your tongue upwards to the front upper palate just behind the teeth. (If you can get in the habit of doing this 24/7, then do so... it will generate saliva... just swallow it).; 3. Breath a few times naturally to relax. 4. As you breath, expand your stomach naturally with the inhale. The breath, stomach movement, and mind work together. 5. On exhale, let the stomach collapse inward.

You don't have much basis for your point as relying on 'self explanatory' reasons is simply an opinion and there would be 1000's of options in the end.... with no agreement. The reason one should read it as Dao and De is historical titling. That is the way it was always understood. TWO PARTS. So, I agree with your position that "Dao and De" is the correct handling of the title. One just has to see the evolution of the titling. Guodian: 300 BC Guodian Laozi A (老子甲 - Laozi jia) consists of (in this order) chapters 19, 66, 46, 30, 15, 64 (part 2), 37, 63, 2, 32, 25, 5, 16, 64 (part 1), 56, 57, 55, 44, 40, and 9. Guodian Laozi B (老子乙 - Laozi yi) consists of chapters 59, 48, 20, 13, 41, 52, 45, and 54. Guodian Laozi C (老子丙 - Laozi bing) consists of chapters 17, 18, 35, 31, and 64 (part 2). Mawangdui Silk Texts (王堆帛書; pinyin: Mawangdui Boshu) : 200 BC Laozi A (老子甲 - Laozi jia) consists of chapters 38-81 Laozi B (老子乙 - Laozi yi) consists of chapters 1-37 Ancient [script] Laozi: 老子 - Laozi 古老子 or 古文老子 - Ancient [script] Laozi Hanfeizi 280–233 BC: The legalist is the earliest commentary to the Laozi and attests to the De before Dao order. Laozi Beida version: By Han Wudi’s reign (141-87 BCE) ？ 老子上經 - Laozi Upper Classic (equates to 德經 - The Classic of De) 老子下經 - Laozi Lower Classic (equates to 道經 - The Classic of Dao) Heshang Gong: Supposedly lived during the reign (202-157 BC) of Emperor Wen of Han.Some believe he was the first to call reverse the 'books' and order them to 81 chapters: Sima Qian: The great historian (100 AD) said: 於是老子乃著書上下篇，言道德之意五千餘言 Therefore, Laozi wrote Upper and Lower Sets (of books) concerning Dao and De of around 5,000 words. Ergo, the historical record shows that this has been understood as two parts: Dao and De.

Since you asked... and it depends on a few 'stories'... but they are brother and sister who after marrying prohibited the marrying of those with a similar clan name; it must be good to be the 'first' and to make up the rules Fu Xi, (伏羲) was born Mi Xi (宓羲), which means ‘silent breath’. Fuxi is also known as Tai Hao (太昊), or Great Magnificant, Tai Di (太帝) or Celestial Emperor, and Pao Xi (庖犧) which may be the origin of his teaching of "yielding sacrificial-animals". Fu Xi's surname was Feng (風, wind) which is pronounced the same as another character Feng (鳳) meaning a Pheonix. Fu Xi observed Pheonixes gathering on a tong tree and based on this image he made the string instrument guqin (he cut down a piece of tong wood to make a qin and used silk cord for strings). The sound of the Qin was said to restore the inner soul. He is called the first of the Sovereigns and attributed to be guided by the element of wood, the season of spring, the cardinal direction of east, and the planet of Jupiter. http://www.mysteriouschina.com/chinese-myth-legend-1-fu-xi-legend/ Nu Wa, ( 女媧 or 女娲) also had the surname of Feng (風) being the sister of Fu Xi (at least in some accounts). She is sometimes referred to as the snake goddess. There is an interesting alternate story for her name: that her father was Shui Jingzi (水精子), the Spirit of Water belonging to a tribe in northern China with the surname Ying 嬴 (meaning snail). She was formed like a human being except that, instead of having legs, she had a tail and glided over the earth. She had a long head with two fleshy horns, her body resembling that of a snail (wa 蝸), hence she was called Nu Wa (meaning snail-maid), and worshiped as a snail goddess (蝸牛神). According to "Duyi Zhi" (獨異志) by Li Rong of the Tang Dynasty (618-907), sectioned as “opening of the universe”, there were a brother and a sister called Nvwa, living in Kunlun Mountains (崑崙), and there were no ordinary people at that time. They wished to become husband and wife, yet, felt shy about it. Thus, the brother took his younger sister to the top of the mountain and swore: "If Heaven allows us to be husband and wife, please let the clouds gather; if not, please let the clouds scatter." Then, the clouds gathered together. The younger sister came to live with her brother. She made a fan with grass to hide her face. The present custom of women taking a fan in their hands originated from that story. Where did they come from? According to the book of Liezi, The Dream of Huaxu (華胥之夢 Huaxu zhi Meng) means a dream like or uptopia land: “The Yellow Emperor had ruled for 15 years but he worried because the world was not well-ordered; so he withdrew, resting himself in the Palace of the Great Court. He purified his heart and submitted his body (to plain living). For three months he himself had nothing to do with carrying out the affairs of state. Once he had a daytime dream about traveling around the state of the Huaxu clan. This was a natural place, where people had no cravings and did not die prematurely. They did not think about clinging to life, nor did think about the fear of death. (Ideas about) beauty and ugliness did not grow in their hearts. mountains and valleys did not cause them to stop walking, and they took lived happily. When the Yellow Emperor awoke he felt happy and contented; he now understood the greatest Dao. For the next 28 years the world was very well regulated, resembling the state of the Huaxu, uptopia society, (in his dream).” Tradition holds that HuaXu was a clan and the matriarial ruler who was the mother of Fuxi and Nuwa. It was said she saw a very large footprint while travelling around Thunder Lake and got caught up in its energy but then emerged pregnant. She is said to have carried Fuxi for 12 years. This area was called Chengji. Eventually she gave birth to Fuxi...