dawei

I generally dislike quoting myself but I take this point from Snowmoki... My wife is back visiting china... so I need to tend to the plants... so I went out to sit by one... I water them... I can see the newer, greener leaves... and those still trying to bud a flower... Yet they depend on the sun as well... but what about another runt? The wind. A nice breeze blows by... the leaves all move... yet, I find they are just saying "hello" back to the wind; a welcome. I wait for the next wind; to let it also talk to me... it comes... my hands suddenly fill with Qi... Hello back...

your doing it again... FH went back to topic , or attempted to... just let it go. Start your own thread... (What an idea!) Actually, I am 5'6" and about 150 lbs... athlete all my life... too many sports to mention... now I know your 'inner seeing' is BS. I spent many years in very conservative Christianity... and read with a passion everything and everyone going backwards to the old testament... I realized the masses were greatly stupid on what they 'believed'.... So I left that ignorant crowd. But the point remains: Jesus talking of the children is not about alchemy but simplicity. In Daoism this is Pu, the uncarved block. That is how it all starts... The point is not about how it starts... but where it ends (or progressing towards).

Ok... is this a slight at the thread about Dao or De first? Maybe not.. and this is original humor But I love this point... interconnection makes not just connections but understanding grow... Oh... I stole your thunder... but you said it first... so you have first thunder and I have second thunder... I am not sure if the OP wants to go this direction but this is very important... Dan Tian are energy centers inside... Weiqi is the energy centers (spheres) outside... which comes first?

Wanted to at least give a word to this... Nicely said as the MDT is maybe the runt of the Three Fields (santian) and the Three Chambers (sanfang).... and least explored. I learned how to pass energy between the Great Three and the practitioner who taught me said nobody had been able to do it as fast as I had... What she was assuming is that teaching-practicing-performing is a fixed timeline. Forget statistics when it comes to energy work and accept it is based more on experience... some people are born with it, so I am slow compared to them. What is interesting, is that with all the talk of "Qi"... we don't talk about the energy center of Qi... which is the MDT... LDT - Jing (essence, for lack of a better word) MDT - Qi (energy, for lack of a better word) UDT - Shen (spirit; the best word I have found) I recall my ex-Qigong sifu saying... put your hand in front of my chest... what do you feel... He could project energy from his MDT... He never asked me to do that with his LDT... maybe he thought I might grab his candy... who knows.... Conspiracies abound... Middle Dan Tian... It is time someone spoke up for this runt !

Ah.. truth so clear it cuts like a knife... And people argue about why are the chakra's seen by the so-called experts in experience as different colors... why can't the enlightened agree to a simple fact of color!!! ergo, there must be some conspiracy about chakras and maybe they don't even exist ! Talk is BS... experience is the Way. While we all would like to ask each other: "What is your experience... what did you feel or see...." What I experienced, felt, or saw may not be what you do. To ourselves, we are experiencing but for others we are but a finger pointing... and some simply point in the wrong direction

(you just had to say something instead of nothing) Agreed. If one can't figure this out in their own body, I would highly recommend learning partners energy. I attribute my very fast understand to energy work by working in pairs/groups as my introduction to Qi... A room full of people engaged in energy exchange will create a platform and base which understands energy is not just words on a forum or book. After I did clincials, and faced some very bad Qi in people, I had one person I could not approach the table as there was a force pushing me away... Yes... and you rightly show why. Nice job.

It seems Batman and Robin would like to get this thread thrown in the pit... And Robin "likes" Batman's post of "EDIT"... which shows at least Batman had some maturity to stay out instead of side-tracking with BS. That's why Robin remains the side-kick... but I'll try to get back to topic... @HE I see where your going with this and, in fact, I think you did an interesting job of tying together your thoughts on most of my post !!! Well done, to say the least. Ultimately, I have a hard time, maybe it is a Qi blockage, to separate anything in regards to Dao and De... Like when the physical body arises, the mind is there simultaneously. This act of simultaneous is a hallmark of daoism... (where is Rene when I need her most!). But as imagery, I can see why you say the "Dao is the guest of De". I actually found that rather profound, even if not accurate (in my thinking). While I do agree that Dao is not the Primordial Unity (One), I cannot agree that De is... for the reason of inseparability... A very interesting take is your idea that DE is the First Divine Lord... I take "signifies the One" as a finger pointing... not the actual One... but we are translating/interpreting/understanding... Nice job.

Yes... Bao Pu Zi said practice is unnatural... It is nice to see it stated so succinctly and honestly...

I have wondered myself about why reverse abdominal breathing (RAB) seems to have a strong following among certain practices. If your raising your coccyx on inhalation, your doing RAB. In my experience, I suspect it is because inhaling (and locking) is easier to generate power/pressure/force than exhaling (and locking) as is done in normal abdominal breathing (NAB). And one needs to recognize that Qi will quickly flow from high pressure to low pressure; many exercises/forms will show this. But one should also realize that the mind is another motive force. Your inhaling and locking and filling the stomach to rotate the LDT. I would like to hear someone with experience in this method as it is essentially both a RAB (inhale/lock/compress) and a NAB (inhale/fill stomach) at the same time... As an example, if one were doing the MCO, on inhale/lock you generate the pressure at the base so that going up the spine (ergo, out of the LDT) occurs. I am trying your method now but the combination of inhale/lock/compress/fill stomach does not feel right. It may be a valid technique which one has to acquire... But I start the turning of the LDT on inhale/unlock/expand/fill stomach. The perineum expands with the stomach; so it is a 3-D expansion in all directions. Breathing down the conception vessel into the LDT, slow and long breath and turn and turn and turn... and on exhale/lock/compress let the spin continue but with less force (or I should say the force of locking and compressing will naturally turn it so you do not have to depend as much on inhale/breath/mind. Have you ever used your hands to create a Qi ball? Where you compress the space, move along the spherical part and you can feel the pressure/force of the 'ball' ? If your doing that right, then your hands will keep the circumference throughout, otherwise your hands are wandering a bit in terms of the surface; meaning you have not fixed the surface. (I've seen people post examples of rotating with their hands but the simple test is to see if they have the circumference fixed or not). The same can be said for rotating the LDT. Compress it occasionally (press inward on the LDT) to know you feel the surface and circumference... JMO. Before rotating, I would get that LDT feeling/connection and 'ok'... I learned a lot by taking chances... won't share any stories here but I know where you are coming from... just in a word: BE CAREFUL. When it doesn't feel right, stop and figure it out, some way... like chatting here You mention Thrusting Vessel and talk of going up the spine... we need to be clear about what you are doing here. This vessel runs interior although it connects to the spine its flow is more along the path of the Tai Ji Pole (happy to be corrected by others experienced in this). The Governing vessel runs along the spine. There are variations on the MCO where you circulate the energy in an orbit as: (quick summary, not any detail) 1. up the spine (fire path) or 2. down the spine (wind path) or 3. up but more interior to the Thrusting vessel (water path). (again, happy to be corrected by those with experience). So, do you want to do some sort of circulation like the MCO or are you trying to only do a thrusting vessel practice (exchange of Yin-Yang, between crown and perineum) ?

There is no emotion except yours. Can't you even see it? I Just posted all your emotional posting in one place. Print it out; meditate on it... Realize who is causing the problems and has the emotional angst. And your snide remarks are not unnoticed... again, you want to belittle someone... "threads with my last words". I didn't realize you cared so much about post count seeing that your 3000 more posts than me even though you joined later... Best advice is to leave the posts to those who know the topic to discuss.

First you belittle the topic: Here we go, again, with another round at it...!!! Then you try to control the topic: Please don't go there. Then your confused: Does that mean the LDT is a point located in the center of the chest or a little bit below it........??? Then you accuse the OP of being confused and needing a grammar lesson from you: Since the OP has no idea what dan tien is, perhaps the OP should have had stated: What exactly is "dan tien"....??? rather than What exactly is "a dan tien".....??? The "a" is the culprit which misled everybody. It is because dan tien is not a thing but only a location on the body....!!! Then you quote yourself without saying a word… and ignore what the OP is making as a point... which means you don't want to stay on topic. Then you say you are kicked out of the conversation (only to continue to post many more times) Then you admit you only know the Dan Tian by name and nothing else; You don’t know the chakras. Your trying to avoid confusion of systems; but you don’t know them anyways. You claim to know the Chinese system yet have no understanding of what Dan Tian means except as a location. Then you belittle the OP and the thread again: Let's not have a miscarriage of this immature thread due to some emotional effects. Then you want to talk “location” again… which has been said more than once is not the topic. Then you accuse another of confusing the topic and are confused about the DDJ: Please stop confusing the issue here. What is from the DDJ....??? --- This is your normal M.O... jump into threads you know nothing about, claim to have all the answers, and then end up blaming others for confusing... Do we really need to endure this over and over and over just because you have nothing better to do than find a post to do this in? (This is a rhetorical question... no answer is expected; only insight).

The cauldron is a late addition... it is external idea... it is not about the cauldron... RED is the key here. IT is from the DDJ...

ah !!!!!! Look at the base color of red rising up !!!! Where in alchemy does this come from??? NOT CINNABAR... that is a late addition... It comes from Laozi himself. What exact chapter? what exact character? If you don't know alchemy as experience then do not respond.

That verse is not alchemy. SO stop hijacking the thread. LET IT GO...

Carrying a back pain; carrying a burden. Life is not a burden... except in the mind and interpreted-experience. Life is ..... what ???? Face the sun set... face the sun at midday... face the sun at sunset. Face the moon each day and night. Then consider: What is life? Is there still a burden to carry? If so, carry who or what? Spell it out... It may be something physical common to us all but realize that is the point....

H.E. I see this and want time to read it. Glad you brought this thread here

Be more surprised when someone claims to talk in a taoist system topic and doesn't even know the system itself ! I will leave behind the pedantic issues of location and claims that your english grammar is the cause of issues I will share some background on dan tian from a taoist texual point of view. Ultimately, it is not about words or location but about an experience which may come after some more understanding... and something tells me that is your interest here.

It seems to me that a few are too caught up in debating "Where" the dan tians are, and that is NOT the question posed. Can't we get beyond limited understanding of 'location' and just get to 'how' it does this? In this case, the OP is asking for the physical make-up. I think those comments which talk of the stomach as a bundle of nerves is the closest answer anatomically. But the question may underscore a limitation in understanding, which a few have hinted at: That one has to get beyond the physical; these are energy centers and thus the 'real' question to ask may be: "where does the idea come from" (it is not haphazard as one suggests), and "How does it work on an energetic level" (which ties to the previous question of understanding where the idea comes from). In a nutshell: it comes from Laozi... and it treats man as a microcosm of the universe... and there is something which resides in each center which makes one capable to return to the universal energy... While these are more interesting Q&A for me, it may not be what the OP wants.

I am curious how people think or know they are not logged out? I use Chrome and don't experience this but want to understand the issue. DO you click Log out but you seem to still be logged in? Did you press the F5 key to 'reload' the page so it can say if your still attached? I would not simply log out, then sign in again to find your automatically attached (logged in)... but refresh the page.

As part of your meditation, consider it as the Three [Great] Ones... and see what you come up with.

I think this is the moral of the story and which I can identify with. In the training I had with them, they like the word 'divine' and equated it to Dao. I later struggled with reconciling this as it did not sit right but I finally came to peace with it.

I agree... it is a two-way conduit... neither holding nor excluding on some level. His usage may be not well understood and I was going to comment on it to Green Tiger... so I'll use this time to do so... as we know... if I respond to two people it will get merged anyway @Green Tiger: I don't think he means like born-again christians might, to 'accept Jesus' means as a potential Taoist counterpart. There is no transubstantiation going on here. To hold Jesus in your heart, as he used it, means to see that his teaching (or some teaching) is valuable towards understand true reality. He mentions that each person's path helps define how they view where they are and who they are and he relates his background in such areas. I also come out of very conservative christianity and understand his point; and I've studied under his program. I will say that I was surprised at the 'christian talk' at times among the attendees; they have a hard time not see the "move up" aspect so easily, as RV may be succinctly saying I would not fret any need to hear from him to defend this meaning... The moral of the story is: Don't look at another: Whether Jesus, Buddha, Laozi, or JJ... Look at yourself and where your radar is set to.

I think trying to separate Dao and De in terms of a sequence is problematic. One point to consider is that in almost every ancient cosmology (that I have reviewed, and I've spent years looking at them), De is never mentioned. In fact, Dao is sometimes not mentioned either. The most common denominators of cosmologies are: 1. The distance past (not exactly a nothingness but simply non-existent/capacity or a pregnant void) 2. A beginning; a first movement or light emerges; Usually considered unity/singular emerges first as space/time 3. A materialization; a separation of the light into matter. The idea of a unity/singularity is most commonly called Great (Da 大), or Great One (Da Yi 大一 or latter as Tai Yi 太一) There seems some uncertainty if Dao is actually this One (or Great One). I tend to hold that the "One" is the unity of all things rather than Dao itself, as Dao is simply the process of unfolding and generation of Unity-to-Materialization. De as an attribute of this unfolding; it's capacity/power/efficacious aspect to actual do something. Dao is the blueprint (engine) but De is the (output motive power). In a way, it is enough to say to obtain the One, to obtain Dao, to obtain De is synonymous; When you get one aspect you get all of it. In several ancient texts, this manifestation process is not known by name, usually just called Great (Da 大). Sometimes Great One is used and is best known due to the Guodian text, Tai Yi Sheng Shui (太一生水). The prominent position of Water makes sense as it is often one of the first symbols to arise (if one can think a mist arises from light). Lingshujing 靈樞經: apocryphal text of unknown date: “Great One (太一) is the honorific style (zi 字) given to water. Sarah Allen said: The Way (dao) was established by One (yi). Lushi chunqiu: 道也者精也不可爲名強爲之名謂之太一 As for dao, it is vitality. It cannot be given either form or name. If forced to name it, I would call it the Great One. -- Ames and Hall 道原 Dao Yuan- in the Four Cannons of the Yellow Emperor: Tao The Origin - Yates 一者其號也 The One was its appelation, 虚其舍也 The Void was its dwelling; 無爲其素也 Nonaction was its original constitution; 和其用也 Harmony was its use. 是故上道高 For this reason, the superior Tao is so high There is so much interchangeability going on among the texts that one is left with Dao, Water, One, Great having all the same symbolism of unity. So where doe DE come into play? While it occurs in oracle bones and Zhou inscriptions as mostly a virtue/action of man, it becomes more metaphysical in the more daoist texts as the nurturing mother aspect of dao; http://www.sino-platonic.org/complete/spp235_de_character_early_China.pdf In the first quarter of the Han Dynasty, Jia Yi 賈誼 wrote: “that which is obtained in order to live, (we) call De” (所得以生謂之德), that “De is the beneficence of the Dao” (德者道之澤也) and also that the loftiness of De is apparent in that of things, “there are none who do not rely on De” (莫不仰恃德). The twelfth chapter of the Zhuangzi, “Heaven and Earth” (Tiandi 天地), makes a similar point: In the Great Beginning there was nothing; nothing existed, nothing (that could be) named. The One arose; there was the One yet it had not yet taken shape. Things obtained it in order to live, (we) call it De. 泰初有无无有无名一之所起有一而未形物得以生謂之德。 Finally, another early Han (?) text, the “Techniques of the Mind I” (Xinshu Shang 心術上) chapter of the Guanzi, tries to explain the function of De and its relation to Dao: Statement 7: “What is vacuous and formless, (we) call Dao. What transforms and nourishes the myriad things, (we) call De.” (虛而無形謂之道化育萬物謂之德。) Explanation 7: “De is the lodging place of the Dao; things obtain it in order to live … Thus, De is an obtainment. As an obtainment, it refers to that which is obtained in order for (things) to be what they are.” (德者道之舍物得以生 … 故德者得也得也者其謂所得以然也。) --- To bring HSG back into this... it is interesting to note that the HSG commentary on Ch. 51 puts a primary aspect on DE as: "The Way gives life to all the myriad creatures. Virtue signifies the One. It is the One which gives birth to and dispenses the breath of life, and thus is nourishing and caring. It is the One which creates all the myriad creatures. It establishes their shape and form. The One creates all the myriad creatures, producing either a warm or cold environment in which they reach completion. The work of the Way and its virtue brings all things to completion." -- Tr. Bertschinger This idea of "signifies the One" is the key to understanding the interchangeability of phrases. Anything in the materials world points to the archetypes; archetypes then point to the One. Water (naturalness,simplicity) points to Dao and De which generates and nurtures life; Dao and De point to the One [unity] from which it all begins/emerges.

Following up on Brian's point: What is the highest goal of alchemy? Is it to hold something of temporal material in your heart? However in high regard we may think the finger pointing may be... None of the ancient texts relate to hold that finger in our heart.... Rather hold, obtain, abide in what?

I had no magic number in mind. Sometimes, a few very hard and long presses is all you can bear. It depends on how much pressure you want to apply and if it is willing to move that easily or not. That's why the salts can relax the area first.