dawei

RV: I'll give an example for its use... and others may have some in regards to the Chen Style Tai Ji which is it well known part of. Let's say one wants to do the MCO... maybe because they want to deal with blockages or reclaim vitality. Whatever. One method to help in the visualization is to use a 'pearl' and orbit the pearl... but how to get a pearl? As a procurer to the MCO, one wants to gather sufficent Qi as it should never be done in a depleted state; Qi easily scatters, etc. One method is to breath into the LDT, I prefer to bring in through the crown (heavenly Qi) and heels (Earthly Qi), several times and get the stove warmed up... then start to let the heavenly Qi descend to the front of the LDT and the earthly Qi to ascend to the back of the LDT... this will start the rotation and one can use their hands in a circular motion to help encourage their visualization if they want. Let it rotate for a while and continue like this but then start to compress the energy (which starts off the size of a drum) to a smaller and smaller size... eventually refined to a pearl. Stop the pearl spinning, drop it into the Huiyin and start the MCO. After done, expand the pearl back... There are probably hundreds of different practices one might be involved in where they use such techniques. This is just one. This comes from Jerry Johnson's Medical Qigong program.

He considers himself a mixed martial artist... and if it were not for a shoulder injury he claims he would of joined the MMA scene... http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0947447/bio http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donnie_Yen#cite_note-nytimes1-1 He is the consummate martial [action/combat] artist and I can't even pick a best movie for him as there are too many great ones...

Sinking and going along... this sums it up for me. Liezi said it somewhat similarly: Hence there is perpetual alternation in what constitutes be timing and end, and the underlying Truth is that there is neither any beginning nor any end at all.

It depends on what one's goals or objectives are in regards to internal energy practices and the development of the LDT. If breathing oriented practice is enough for someone, then that is fine and that is where they will remain; with at least a new awareness of energy and the LDT. Nothing wrong with that as that is the foundation. Think of it as concentric circles or ripples in a pond. You start at the smallest circle, where the rock enters the water. The rock entering the water is akin to learning to drop the breath/Qi all the way down to the LDT. That generates all the rest of the potential ripples... which ripples outwardly you move to are dependent on the additional internal energy practices pursued. You'll hear some here talk about these higher level practices, develop of energy and experiences, etc...and you can get a idea of what is going on but you'll never really understand it unless you do it, and one really has no ability to speak to such issues until they practice and experience it. So it depends on your goals regarding internal energy work and the LDT...

I recall talking with a friend who mentioned meditating to 'forget' (similiar to Zhuangzi's idea of 'sitting and forgetting'). I basically thought: Why not simply forget to forget instead of spending 10 years in seeking some form of silence... which one cannot seem to forget. Deci: How much of this is fate/destiny vs practice? I once thought it was all practice/dedication/commitment, etc... and found a disillusionment in the chase/seeking... and instead found it was not about my doing as much as what is already done/destined.

Void is NOW

It seems you answered the second issue with the first; it is ultimately not independent (from form). Void, Emptiness, Nothing are not really absence of everything, as others have said, but it seems to be to rather be what is it absent of? It is absent of our ability to perceive the potential emergence laying dormant in a kind of incubation. It is interesting to note the early Han period explanations use the image of the void as an embryo. But a natural example of our inability to perceive is similar to looking at air and not seeing the moisture it contains which will eventual rain down on us. For that fact, we don't see the 78% nitrogen which makes up most of air. I don't accept being from non-being but rather they are co-mingled like potential/kinetic energy. Simultaneously both/and. This is the point of the oldest text of Laozi chapter 40 which makes the most sense. Later versions and interpretations just screw up the meaning with ideas of before/after/time... man-made problems in perception of the pregnant void.

thanks for this. Well said.

I'm late to the thread but want to go back to your description of your MCO: 1. You mention a pearl and later said it was the size of your belly; it sounds less a pearl and more a balloon size. How do you visualize a balloon fitting up the tube? 2. You mentioned after 3-4 cycles you stop... so you do four minutes of MCO and stop? 3. You mentioned one minute per cycle... do you stop at certain points in the inhale/exhale or where ever? I'll comment on these and then move on: 1. In my experience, the pearl can start off as a balloon, turning like a washing machine drum, but as it turns I compress it smaller and smaller to the size of a glowing, refined pearl. 2. I have rarely done this, in a serious way, less than 1 hour at a sitting. Of course I have played with shorter times, etc but not if I want the benefit of the MCO. 3. My experience is to ascend in one breath and descend in one breath; eventually one cycle can be done in one breath. I think it is good to start it slower but a minute for a cycle seems rather long but I have heard from others how they allow the pearl to be observant along its path and take longer. I am not sure you have the proper energy level to begin the MCO; whether in months of preparing or prior to the start of the session. You may be too low on energy to achieve the MCO as you describe. And when you finish the session, you don't really mention what happens to the pearl... is it 'let go' or do you circulate the energy or what? Do you sense any energy stagnation or buildup? I sense you need purging whether in general or simply dirty Qi removed. There should be purging and while you mention the six healing sounds, do you purge Qi out you feet or where? I used to have to purge quite a bit and came up with some techniques which worked but it was always out the feet for me. You might try basic circulation methods instead of the MCO to see if it is a balance and regulation need you have. The macro cosmic orbit follows the meridian path; ascending Yin channels through to the descending Yang channels. I have often found this a basic circulation which helped me the most when I wanted to balance myself. This is a quick explanation I know but just sharing it. I would be doing these latter items before trying the MCO: Purge, circulate/balance, build up energy levels.

The belly is the seat of life: Qi, food, inner senses. This lower energy center is our true center (中). I think when LZ says to hold the center it is not just the inner aspect but this seat of life.

Translation by negation is not a West thing; most chinese translators do the same thing by translating word for word: Mawangdui Text: 道 可 道 非 恆 道 Wang Bi Text: 道 可 道 非 常 道 非 - negative / not / not to be / non / to refute Several years ago while at a daoist temple in china I came upon the feeling that this was simply the action of Dao not just a description of Dao... and came up with: Dao, once Dao'ed, is ever-changing. Dao can be described as a static/singular rule/constant of arising; Dao as to its action can be described as to its outcome of multiplicity. My usage is put commas as: 道, 可 道, 非 恆 道 I have seen an explanation as: 道可 , 道非 , 恆 道 - which is equally interesting to see a comparison of what Dao is vs is not. Did you have some idea you came to which is not necessarily the norm but it made sense to you?

Actually, I don't think so. The five elements are more about the transformation process or cycles which relate to the organs. The maps in question ultimately relate to the meridian clock; the path of energy flow. I finally found a link which one can follow the order of the five elements to see it is not the order of the energy flow: http://www.goodhealthinfo.net/chinese_clock.htm I have not found a definitive on which was first, but the Hetu may be the older more original simply because it is simpler level of order: It represents the four cardinal directions while the Luo shu represents the eight directions. The Hetu correspondence is as follows: 1-6 combine to create Water 3-8 combine to create Wood 2-7 combine to create Fire 4-9 combine to create Metal The Luo Shu with its eight directions corresponds to the eight vessels and ultimately produced the meridian clock pattern. I often see either wood or fire at the top. The Classic of Medicine appears to list Wood first but the relative positions and order of the patterns do not change. "The Five Elemental Energies of Wood, Fire, Earth, Metal, and Water encompass all the myriad phenomena of nature."

http://www.alice-dsl.net/wulfdieterich/mawangdui/mawangdui.htm That is true but because they are two distinct representations; the five elements is more about the influence and balance of the associated organs and the meridian clock is more the continuous path of the Qi flow. That orbit follows the meridian clock [flow].

That's true. Here is a good source to see each text version: http://www.tao-te-king.org/trilingual.htm Pick a chapter, say Ch. 13. You will see the Wang Bi with chinese, pinyin, and english. Scroll down and you'll see the MWD-A, MWD-B, and Guodian (if applicable). Although it is not bamboo or silk, they tend to show the original character... but cross check with the bamboo slip link. Ok. This is a medical book heavily explaining Yin/Yang theory; probably dates around 200bc-300bc but one of the earliest references to it is around 100ad. http://www.natural-health-zone.com/meridian-clock.html http://www.examiner.com/article/timing-is-everything-a-review-of-acupuncture-and-the-clock-meridians http://www.acupuncturetoday.com/mpacms/at/article.php?id=30030 Keyword: Meridian Clock If really interested in this, you should study the acupuncture lines and see that they connect and flow in the order explained. One practice is to move the Qi along the macrocosm orbit which is in the order as well. In clinical, we would finish a treatment by moving the receivers energy in this orbit and tie together their energy centers. Agreed... I would be useful to maybe break this out to its own topic.

In chapter one, the opening about the fish and bird is the important imagery which sets the stage for what will be explained; Here is the same issue with the opening lines: 南郭子聂靠几静坐，仰面朝天，缓漫吐气，形体木然，仿佛精神脱离了身躯 TZU-CH'I OF SOUTH WALL sat leaning on his armrest, staring up at the sky and breathing - vacant and far away, as though he'd lost his companion. Yen Ch'eng Tzu-yu, who was standing by his side in attendance, said, "What is this? Can you really make the body like a withered tree and the mind like dead ashes? The man leaning on the armrest now is not the one who leaned on it before!" -- Burton Burton captures the essence of the meaning. 靠 - often translated as 'leaning' on his armrest but the imagery as the Shuo Wen states: 相違也 = To depart from. This is understood also in the final part of this line which means: "Similar to the spirit separating itself from the body." In the line "I had just now lost myself" (Legge), furthers the image. The gist of the questioning which follows is: Is there really a separation going on? (Or is separation artificially created in the sense and mind) This is not so much about "Imagined Equality" but "Ultimate Unity". The piping of man is the hollow of the pipe; the piping of earth is the pipe/flute. So what of the piping of Heaven? The obvious answer may be Dao but I think Ziran is most appropriate as the idea is not to further separate this down but bring it all back together as One Sound; One Unity. As man has a sound; earth alters that sound; heaven alters that sound. As heaven's piping dies down we return to the sounds of earth and man. The hollow is empty; the fills with air; then empties again based on the influences of heaven and earth. The imagery is one of layers of the whole, not separate entities. The title should the: "The Sound of One Pipe".

That's not correct so not sure where you seeing this. The Guodian is using the oldest character 胃. 謂 did not exist until they clarified the varying meanings of a single character (ie: 胃) by adding radicals to the left. Here is what the Guodian was using: One can see this on the bamboo slips. You can see the bamboo slips here: http://www.daoisopen.com/GuodianLaozi.html The book of rites was later than the DDJ but is rather factual in describing "social forms, administration, and ceremonial rites " Not sure what Nei Jia is.

The 'valley' was paramount in the neolithic settlements. Pooling waters; water moving... see the character Later a man was added, knealing by the valley waters... breathing... Qi... Later translated as "desire" in many chapters.... Not quite... Wong had a better grasp of it... bed time...

--Fu Xi, (伏羲) was born Mi Xi (宓羲), which means ‘silent breath’. He was born in approximately 2900-2800 BC, and wore grass clothing, ate wood and is said to have been born with a sacred virtue (神聖之德) which could tame the animals and control the weather. He is also known as Tai Hao (太昊), or Great Magnificant, Tai Di (太帝) or Celestial Emperor, and Pao Xi (庖犧) which may be the origin of his teaching of "yielding sacrificial-animals". Fu Xi's surname was Feng (風, wind) which is pronounced the same as another character Feng (鳳) meaning a Pheonix. Fu Xi observed Pheonixes gathering on a tong tree and based on this image he made the string instrument guqin (he cut down a piece of tong wood to make a qin and used silk cord for strings). The sound of the Qin was said to restore the inner soul. He is called the first of the Sovereigns and attributed to be guided by the element of wood, the season of spring, the cardinal direction of east, and the planet of Jupiter. He is credited with inventing writing, nets for fishing, hunting, riding animals for transportation. Fu Xi taught the people how to raise sheep and sacrificial animals so as to offer them for rituals. According to legend, he and his sister, Nu Wa, were the only survivors of a world-wide flood and praying to the Jade Emperor they received approval for marriage. He ruled over his descendents and lived a total of 197 years. He is said to be the originator of “The Book of Change” (Yi Jing, 易经, more commonly written as I Ching in the west), the oldest of the five classics, which is the source and basis for the Chinese explanation of how the universe unfolds, manifests and influences all life. This writing ultimately impacted cosmology, Yin Yang, Traditional Chinese Medicine theory, Feng Shui, etc. Fu Xi is said to have invented the 100 Chinese family names and decreed that marriages may only take place between persons bearing different family names; these are also attributed to others. Fu Xi sought an understanding of the universal laws of nature and identified five planetary influences (ie: the precursor to the five phases, also known as the five elements). He is said to have observed all things above and below, which is the essence of “Kan Yu” (ancient precursor to Feng Shui). According to legend, he was meditating next to the Luo River when a strange creature lept out which had markings on its back which later developed into the Yellow Map (He Tu). Another story relates that Fu Xi went to Gua Tai Mountains to gain an understanding of the workings of the ways of heaven. He saw a great horse with the head of a dragon jump on a rock at the Wei Shui River at the foot of the mountains. This rock was shaped like the Tai Ji symbol as known today. These various stories emphasis Fuxi’s interest in understanding how the elemental forces transform and relate and also provide the origin for the eight trigram’s development of the 81 Hexagrams of the Yi Jing. Fu Xi is also said to have studied Qi (the universal energy of the universe). In cosmological stories, Fu Xi is said to be the first husband, marrying his sister Nu Wa. The I Ching (Book of Change) states: “In the old times of King Fuxi’s regime, he observed sky and the stars when he looks upwards, and researched the earth when he looks downwards, and watched the birds and beasts to see how they live in their environment. He took examples from nearby and far away, and then made 8 Yin Yang signs to simulate the rules of universe.” Folklore relates: “In the beginning there was as yet no moral or social order. Men knew their mothers only, not their fathers. When hungry, they searched for food; when satisfied, they threw away the remnants. They devoured their food hide and hair, drank the blood, and clad themselves in skins and rushes. Then came Fu Xi and looked upward and contemplated the images in the heavens, and looked downward and contemplated the occurrences on earth. He united man and wife, regulated the five stages of change, and laid down the laws of humanity. He devised the eight trigrams, in order to gain mastery over the world.” (Ban Gu, Baihu tongyi written in the first century AD). Zhuangzi wrote: “Are you, Sir, unacquainted with the age of perfect virtue? Anciently there were Rong-cheng, Da-ting, Bo-huang, Zhong-yang, Li-lu,Li-Chu, Xian-yuan, He-xu, Zun-lu, Zhu-rong, Fu-xi, and Shen-nong. In their times the people made knots on cords in carrying on their affairs. They thought their (simple) food pleasant, and their (plain) clothing beautiful. They were happy in their (simple) manners, and felt at rest in their (poor) dwellings. (The people of) neighbouring states might be able to descry one another; the voices of their cocks and dogs might be heard (all the way) from one to the other; they might not die till they were old; and yet all their life they would have no communication together. In those times perfect good order prevailed.” -- Legge In medicine, Fu Xi is said to taste many herbs and utilize the treatment of Bian [stone] Healing in order to cure people of their ailments by adjusting their Qi circulation. The Huang Di Nei Jing (Yellow Emperor's Classic of Internal Medicine) is a manual that established the foundation on which principles of Chinese medicine still operate to this day and makes references to Bian Stone healing. According to Huangfu Mi (c. 215-282 AD), author of The Systematic Classic of Acupuncture and Moxibustion, needling therapy was first used during China's Bronze Age, over five thousand years ago. He attributes its invention to either Fu Xi or Huang Di. Archeology has so far only unearthed such stones from Shangdong province dating to 3500 BC. Fuxi’s major role in ancient myth is attested by most of the Zhou era sources, yet he does not feature in the ancient myth book attributed to Yu the Great, The Book of Mountains and Seas. This early myth book does mention the divinity Tai Hao which was associated to the direction of east and the element wood. Fuxi was given more prominence in the Han period with the appendix text of The Book of Change attributing his role in the Trigrams. It is also in the Han period that he is associated to Tai Hao and the goddess Nu Wa which resulted in the famous painting of their intertwined serpent tails. In late- and post-Han periods Fuxi and Nuwa take on more demythologized descriptions. --- My personal history/myth account over the years of wanderings... bed time...

40 year old virgins aside... very cool.... and Kanyu originated with Fuxi... it is very ancient...

Was quoting the Classic of Rites: 《禮·月令》季春之月，日在胃。 季春 = final month of spring (i.e. third month of lunar calendar) In the body meridian clock, stomach 胃 is 7am... I assume this is close to sunrise idea. I don't disagree with the stomach as the seat of understanding. It is the seat of the lower dan tian energy center. This is where we truly 'think' in the sense of inner seeing. Realize that energy cycles and Wu Xing (5 Element Theory) do not actually align in every case. Heat is kidney's in one; but heart in another...

Fair enough... I deal with data day-in and day-out... As the saying goes: "There are lies, damn lies and statistics!" The numbers are less important if the research is good. yes... I could ponder it but my inner voice says to let it go for now... interesting stuff.

A quick look at some of the oldest meanings for stomach: 1. It is the 'enclosure'; food, Qi, etc. 2. As spring starts the seasons, the stomach starts the day 3. The stomach is the source of sound (of talking) I would venture that as the ancient characters carried many meanings and later clarified with standardization, 胃 became many sources for later meanings and 謂(谓) was the particular meaning of speaking has it's source [sound] in the stomach.

Not sure where you get the counts from for 謂. From Dao is Open website: 謂(谓) wèi (wei) speak about, described, called, is said to be WB 1, 6, 10, 13, 14, 16, 17, 22, 27, 30, 36, 39, 51, 52, 53, 55, 56, 59, 65, 67, 68, 69, 74, 78 HSG 1, 6, 10, 13, 14, 16, 17, 22, 27, 30, 36, 39, 51, 52, 53, 55, 56, 59, 65, 67, 68, 69, 74, 78 MWDA 1, 6, 13, 14, 16, 17, 27, 30, 36, 39, 51, 52, 55, 56, 59, 62, 65, 68, 69, 78 MWDB 1, 6, 10, 13, 14, 16, 17, 22, 27, 30, 36, 39, 51, 52, 55, 56, 59, 62, 65, 67, 68, 69, 78 GD 13, 30, 55, 56, 59 I believe the Mawangdui B is dated later (more modern) but interesting find that it contains the older character. I could speculate some ideas about your points but will look some more first.

If we followed this line the we may end up saying animals don't have emotions (or certain emotions) and this argument begins to fall apart for me. The way our compassion manifests may not be exactly the way an animals might. It is very interesting how much variations this one word, Ren, has produced. I will note that Ren only shows up in the oldest manuscript in one chapter and in a negative sense: Guodian 18: Therefore, when the Great Way is rejected, it is then that "humanity" and "righteousness" show up on the scene; -- Hendricks Various later manuscripts add it to Ch. 5,8,19,38,64. The absence in the Guodian and the negative use reflects how we might consider how to understand DDJ5 usage by not translating it but knowing the negative connotation to Confucius's most important virtue, REN. Heaven and Earth (and the Sage) are NOT REN. Their Way is not--the impulse of--Ren; Their Way is the Way itself. We can forget trying to apply emotions, virtue, etc... Just know that when one loses the Way of Li Erh they end up grabbing hold of the Way of Kong Zi.

I am sure a few here have read him, and probably several of his books. I think he has one of the more promising and developing ideas (well, since 1980). But for all his great insights and explanations, he overlooks an inner seeing issue: Why are the extremities really good at generating vibrations? Because they are shaped like tuning forks. Also interesting to note how a tuning fork can be used to help diagnose a broken bone when no equipment is available.