dawei

Test it against other similar passages. You will see the pattern of use in the MWD: http://ctext.org/pre-qin-and-han?searchu=%E6%98%AF%E8%83%83

Don't believe this guy either... Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming, is a renowned author and teacher of Chinese martial arts and Qigong. Born in Taiwan, he has trained and taught Taijiquan, Qigong and Chinese martial arts for over forty-five years. He is the author of over thirty books, and was elected by Inside Kung Fu magazine as one of the 10 people who has "made the greatest impact on martial arts in the past 100 years." Dr. Yang lives in Northern California. A Modern Definition of Qi by Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming, November 30, 2007 http://www.haumofyoga.co.za/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=70:george-mentis&Itemid=17 Yang first wrote his book section in 1980.

I agree. What is said about it is gibberish on some level. But what you observe in nature is not gibberish. [i can't define what is pornography.] "But I know it when I see it." popular paraphrase of Potter Steward, opinion in Jacobellis v. Ohio (1964)

When a foolish man hears of the Tao, Deci he laughs out loud (LOL) If he didn't laugh, it wouldn't be the Tao. Deci

When a superior man hears of the Tao, Deci he immediately begins to embody it. When an average man hears of the Tao, Deci he half believes it, half doubts it. When a foolish man hears of the Tao, Deci he laughs out loud. If he didn't laugh, it wouldn't be the Tao. Deci You had me at the first post... not yours ... sincerely succinct!

I agree and it can be drawn out further... Man's creations and illusions come forth after man's thoughts... thoughts of separation from nature, the 10,000 and Dao... As Hendrick's said in his translation of Guodian 18: Therefore, when the Great Way is rejected, it is then that "humanity" and "righteousness" show up on the scene;

Ok... so I am sure this is going to be an unexpected direction but it shows the idea that ZZ is describing a spiritual journey which is easy to support in itself based on the chapter discussion... but what of a fish and bird? We are lucky enough to turn to ancient archaeology of China to align what we read as mystic and esoteric stories of 'spirit-men'... and it aligns with what is stated about shamanistic cultures communication with the spirits. As the renowned archaeologist K.C. Chang notes: "Images of the various animals that served as the helpers of shamans and shamanesses in the task of communicating between heaven and earth, the living and the dead". Lindgred points out the 'ascensional symbolism' in her paper that "the spirit travel is often understood as a magical flight and as such bird symbolism tends to be associated with shamanistic beliefs". Both poems (like Chu Ci) and pottery in neolithic and painting into the Han associate shaman rituals to bird flight. Xi Wang Mu was often depicted as flying with the body of a bird. The neolithic Dawenkou culture has one of the earlier to have bird symbolism to spirits. And the fish: The neolithic Yangshao culture is one of the most complete and famous sites unearthed. This shamanistic village abounds in fish symbolism; usually a pair of fish swimming around the head of a Wu in meditation. In one such piece of pottery, a human head and fish are merged together as one. The fish represents life; the water spirit; and pottery of fish were often buried with the dead. Thus, the fish allowed the mystic to communicate to the netherworld and the bird to the spirits. The fish and bird are symbols of transcending beyond the physical realms.... a true free wanderer...

Sorry to say... only to you. Your 'proof' has been refuted by too many to comment further.

This may be a self-imposed limitation of those who view daoism purely through a philosophical lens... and i don't mean this in any disrespect but similar to some of what we talk about in the ZZ threads. Ch. 25 is in the Guodian and thus we know that the ending lines often used to claim a four entity separate are simply misunderstood. The lines mimic what other cosmology states: Man comes forth after Earth; Earth comes forth after Sky; Sky comes forth after Dao. The common basis for everything is Ziran; naturalness. It would be a mistake to call this nature, IMO. The chapter describes a transforming cosmology... the opening lines show all the cards up front. I think we'd be hard pressed to claim LZ as a "standalone document" and then turn to Western Wiki for support over other ancient chinese cosmologies

{General comment: Not intended as a reply to the OP} This keeps getting more weird with each post... 1. Man is separate from Nature 2. Animals are not separate from nature Ergo... Man is separate from animals... and thus separate from the 10,000 things.

Maybe we should conclude with now explaining the fish transforming to a bird... It is late but I'll be back tomorrow to share my thoughts.

Yes... I don't know of anyone yet to agree with this 'harm' angle. If viewed from entropy: Nature is the natural process of harm... From another point of view, it is the natural process of generation. It is less about opposites than the natural ebb and flow of transformations. I always liked James Wang's view that Wu Wei was the negative sense of Zi Ran; and I can't think to add 'harm' in any defition of Zi Ran either. The closest I have seen to having 'harm' in a definition of Wu Wei is Blofeld who said it is: "No action out of HARMony with Nature's Laws"

Seems to me that ZZ is tying up the spiritual journey of the free wanderer. Not like those who view useful and useless or master Jung of Song who viewed external or internal... he offers many free wanderer examples so far, including Yao which I have pointed out. The so-called useless tree here is the character Shu (樹). This also means to plant (cultivate) and has been used in previous sections along that line... so here is one spiritual metaphor he has been working on.

I think that is a reasonable chapter to bring in too. I like how Ch. 80 links to the idea of 'keeping one's feet on the ground' as seen in Ch. 8.

Whether as the OP states it or Wilhelm, it speaks of procreation to me. Thunder (arousing energy) pentrates the earth (receptivity) which causes the earth to shake (be impregnated with energy). While the energy from lightning is now known to be some sort of result of electrical charges and we usually think of it as a charge differential in the sky/clouds... But what I see in the OP version is almost suggestive that the mountain-mother contains the [potential-future] daughter-seed and simply awaits its seasonal transformation. In nature, we see this biological clock issue as well.

I was not sure your meaning of 'heart' and that's why I asked... Thanks for the explanation... now I can understand your angle and meaning. I would then agree with what you are suggesting that everything has a 'heart'... and to me, there is an inner connection it has to the 'source'; so we may use different words for what it may find it needs/seeks (relationship vs source) and have a different 'other' in mind but we are not really separating things up so much.

I am not trying to box you in. You seem to admit there are 10,000 things out there; do you subdivide them all into what their individual needs may be vs another's needs? I am just trying to see how much you simply subdivide down to the lowest level and stop treating some things on equal level. As an example: What is the 'need' for those things which do not have a heart? I guess I am trying to figure out your basis for your comment that the 'heart needs relationships', when there are things which equally share existence which do not have a heart. and when you said it is 'utterly Sovereign'... is it Sovereign over those things which do not possess a heart? If so, is the Sovereign-ness exactly the same over both (all) or differ because of things nature (has a heart vs does not have a heart). I am not saying your simply speaking human-centric but my responses are looking at that idea on some level...

Do you separate man out of the 'ten thousand'? I can only interpret from your use of 'heart' that you maybe want to treat man differently than everything else which has arisen in material form.

Particularly when that 5 pound bag is a cow... A studied showed: "Cows that consumed 6 pounds of flaxseed per day produced milk with 18 percent fewer saturated fatty acids, 82 percent more poly-unsaturated fatty acids and 70 percent higher omega-3 levels than cows that ate no flaxseed." Now, that is Tao...

back from death to life. Li Erh, Xi Wang Mu, Guan Yin, Breakfast, Lunch, dinner.

I heard where you are coming from but I think this association is wrong. If your equations was: true/eternal love = freedom ; Then what would be your analysis of love? I am not saying I am right and you are wrong as I think both exist; in fact, I see it as a spectrum of love: Self-Love to Other Love; no love would be in the middle. The problem may be the loaded connotation of the word 'love' and more particular 'romantic love'. I would say this is an evolved concept; maybe abused along the way... but if one loves another too much, what is it they are loving? The ability for another to fill a void or represent a higher idea? Are they just loving themself or an imagined self or no-self? Love may be nothing more than a projection of expectations, desires, or ideas... when love is devoid of that and is based on the object alone, then self is removed... Once self is removed from the equation, we can begin to understand love better.

I am not so sure that LZ talks a lot about filling of bellies; The main chapter is 3 but 12 helps to shed light on the issue. As well, one main theme of LZ is knowing when enough is enough. I think this helps round out the meaning on some level; this may be what you are suggesting about "until satisfied". I see the following going on: 1. Ch. 3: Governing the state is a microcosm for governing the self. The message is to calm the mind (reduce the clutter and desires) and enrich the basic needs (food via the stomach). As the heart/mind is the upper energy centers and the stomach is the lower energy center, LZ is clearly encouraging the care of the lower energy center, also known as the lower brain [of intuition]. 2. Ch. 12: This is another clear message that LZ does not play to the [outer] senses/perceptions but to the basic [inner] needs. 3. Knowing when enough is enough and when to stop. Don't seek or aspire to some level based on senses; following an inner knowing of when to stop. 4. Empty yet full; Filled and never empty. I think this is a minor theme when applied to these ideas but they are showing the wholeness of the body; the heart/mind may be empty but the lower energy centers may be full. Adding a note to Ch. 9 which says (Tr. Hendricks of the Guodian text): To accumulate until you have filled it Is not so good as stopping in time. Thus filling is not as important as simply knowing when enough is enough...

I find this echo [of the past] in my inner most place . I think the usage of the character of center, Zhong, in the Laozi is completely understood... it is this inner most echo place.

NoVoid... your just void of understanding our resident idiot taoist.... The points he makes is not the counter-points you are making... It is like you are now talking to air itself... Moral of the story: Don't argue with an idiot... especially when others say the idiot is right

I fly a fair amount as part of my work and I used to practice qigong at 33,000 feet. I have experienced stuff only at that moment but that is not what I want to share. I will share a much more mundane experience. I like flying for the simple reason of looking at the clouds: at what is above and at what is below. Looking down on earth has been my most memorizing experience. But I often looked down in a kind of lamenting way; how 'man' has littered the earth: Look at the structures, roads, cars, etc... it is like insects running around on a blacktop. It is concrete pretending to be earth. It is buildings pretending to be mounts.... it reeks of 'man' de-construction this planet... breaking all the rules of nature which flourishes naturally... And then in one particular gaze, I saw it... the ten thousand arising, flourishing, returning... and the cars, streets, buildings, structures are a part of the ten thousand... I saw them arise from man... At that moment, I realized that it was not man which is great but the ten thousand things. I have had this experience later as well but not as profound as this first time.