dawei

well... let's see... a few chapters coming up... "There was existence; there had been no existence. There was no existence before the beginning of that no existence. There was no existence previous to the no existence before there was the beginning of the no existence. If suddenly there was nonexistence, we do not know whether it was really anything existing, or really not existing." "Therefore from non-existence we proceed to existence till we arrive at three; proceeding from existence to existence, to how many should we reach?" "I can (conceive the ideas of) existence and non-existence, but I cannot (conceive the ideas of) non-existing non-existence, and still there be a non-existing existence. How is it possible to reach to this?" "The door of Heaven is Non-Existence. All things come from non-existence. The (first) existences could not bring themselves into existence; they must have come from non-existence. And non-existence is just the same as non-existing. Herein is the secret of the sages." 'In the beginning there was nothing; by and by there was life; and then in a little time life was succeeded by death. We hold that non-existence was the head, life the body, and death the os coccygis. But of those who acknowledge that existence and nonexistence, death and life, are all under the One Keeper, we are the friends.' --- It is not that he does not speak to Wu and You but he raises above its duality; he deconstructs it as One complimentary whole.

The kinds of birds he uses is material... a dove does what a dove can do. Its size is important as it comes with the understanding of a dove. He doesn't pretend that a dove is large and can fly like Peng. There is an appropriateness in the kind, use, function, etc.

The dove is not lazy. It is limited by its [smaller] perspective. I may not understand the soaring ability of Peng, but Peng has lost the ability which they possess too.

We live and perceive from our own limitations.

To me: Wu Wei is the first potential mover; Qi is the first kinetic mover. From a certain point of view, they are the side-by-side when you connect to the idea.

I did see the link and 'tradiing' ... I was only extending to idea that the north and northwest were non-chinese anyways... and we know of such settlements as well. So I don't find it that difficult to see this location was home to trading. And thanks.

I provided that Legge link... didn't realize it would cause such a discussion over chapters vs sections. I would do Chapter sections... CH1:1: 1 - Enjoyment in Untroubled Ease 1: Is azure the proper colour of the sky? CH1:2: 1 - Enjoyment in Untroubled Ease 2: The mushroom of the morning: Return to a third meal And there would need to be some room to discuss the tie between the previous sections if it appears they are connected or ZZ wants us to take a ride

I just realized that I missed on 10 pages of discuss... I wanted to say that ZZ is trying to undermine our perception of things; this is much more than an exaggeration going on. I have not heard of non-locality before but it makes sense.

However Tangential... this is a good historical point. North and Northwest China was predominately non-Chinese going back... well as far back as we may want to go. Certainly the Han documented numerous troubles with these people and we can only imagine their long period of settlement similar to the eventual settlements around the Yellow River.

There are too many variables; the persons; the Qi they interact with, the effect of this, etc. I found I could drink incredible quantities beyond my previous consumption. No one way is necessarily your way or my way.

I think Steve is on point, as usual, and Malik brings up the practical lack that our culture and environment clouds. AB breathing is important but it is but a part; and practices are too wide-spread and varied to try and fit AB to everything except it is fundamental (first base). There are just too many practices where breathing (or attention to breathing or intention to breath) is not fundamental. I think that the purpose of this thread was not so much to explore all these other areas but to simply ask how important is the base. There are routines I do which don't care about AB breathing... One needs to want to explore this 'beyond' part; again, I don't think the OP wants to do that.

I tend to not interpret DDJ50 as fractions. We could discuss it in the DDJ50 area (can't remember if we got into it here but I've talked my point about this at another site). So I guess I can't really answer the question. Added; Looks like I did speak my mind on it at TTB: http://thetaobums.com/topic/19370-ttc-study-chapter-50-of-the-tao-teh-ching/

I would tend to think it would be more efficient for all and allow easier participation if someone really wanted to see the chapter but doesn't want to hunt it down in each one you'll post.

I don't disagree with preservation or survival concept... but that also occurs through decay and chaos. One life form preserves by destroying another.

Actually, what would make it easier is if you would post a link for each chapter you post. That one, only one person finds the link for all, instead of everyone hunting through pages on each chapter trying to find it. Added: With a little research, I wonder if these chapters line up with the study area. This has all Legge's chapters with one link, if you want to post this with each chapter: http://oaks.nvg.org/ys1ra5.html

I see... since I don't see Dao as possessing energy itself, it may be more like the grid or matrix which connects all things and allows the energy to flow around the grid.

I see Wuji as a 'void-state' within the transformations of every possible phase, non-existent and existent; Dao is the mechanism for this transformation; the black box which makes it all go and transform and arise. The ONE contains all of it; no individual parts to speak of.

While I see your point, I just think as long as we hold to one side of any aspect, we're missing the other side. There is a unity to chaos-order spectrum (circle or spiral)... I don't see this as necessarily dualistic opposites but just the whole.

True... but I did not see an argument for a spiral... unless you making one now.

I agree to a degree... There is speculation in cosmology and LZ has the least to say of most ancient texts. I agree he observed; he was a naturalist. But it is not simply about disorder to order; that is only one segment on the circle being described. Get off the merry-go-round and one sees the ebb and flow... it returns to disorder in the end... so was it about order?

That's good... pain means something meaningful... You ought to really dig down and understand her point... but I sense you don't really care to understand it... but enjoy pointing out as such. In any case, I could probably send you a link to the paper... but don't want to waste either of our time.

I just wanted you to know that I read your response but just don't really have a response in keeping with the thread. I am looking at the ancient texts for additional understanding but your idea of looking at some experiential/energy support is as valid on some level. I don't quite see the connect between what your saying and the counting as explaining what LZ means... but whether you want to share more here or as a separate thread, I will continue to read it. I just mean: If nobody responded to your post then maybe you would just give up the thought but I would encourage you to share more, somewhere...

I think you are on to something in regards to finding the compatibility between the explanations... but each cosmology I gave relies only on what their text stated. So that is why I gave the comparisons. The role of "water" (Great One 太一 Who Gave Rise to Water 生水) has not really been explored enough and passed over too easily. Sarah Allen remains one of the few who I like to read on it. My personal feeling is that this water is more like mist, as in a translucent energy. Remember that the original character for Qi actually looks like clouds (mist). I also personally think the Huainanzi may be the most accurate for a few reasons: 1. It adheres very close to the most ancient of these, the Hengxian 2. It has some time to develop the ideas beyond the far ancient thinking 3. The idea of a 'Primal Illumination' (my translation) is the wu-state counter-part to Qi... Nobody else arrived at such an idea. I am losing track of your ideas as this seems opposite of what you started with: This is significant, I believe, since it shows how to attain this "Oneness." 神得一以靈 Spirits attained the One by divine influence Somewhere inbetween may be an idea like: The spirit of 'attained One' is divine influence.

I think so. I'll let you chew on a comparison of cosmology sequences, but the way I tend to look at this section of ONE, TWO, THREE that LZ is speaking of only in regards to [the start of] the manifest world: One = Qi (undifferentiated) Two = Polarity; Clear / Muddy; Distinct /Indistinct; Yin / Yang Three = The interaction of Singularity Energy (Qi) with it's arising polarity (Yin-Yang). Compare Cosmology Sequences: HengXian: Hengxian (Nothingness) → Field (cosmos) → Qi (undifferentiated) → “Being” (Clear Qi=Heaven and Muddy QI=Earth) → “beginning” (Myriad Things) → “movement”. Taiyi ShengShui: Great One → Water → Heaven and Earth → Spirit and Light → Yin Yang → Four Seasons Huainanzi: Primal Illumination (boundless void) → Cosmos → Qi (undifferentiated) → Clear Qi=Heaven and Muddy QI=Earth → Yin Yang → Four Seasons → Myriad Things Lushu Chunqiu Great One → Heaven and Earth → Yin Yang → Myriad Things The Book of Rites: Great One → Heaven and Earth → Yin Yang → Four Seasons → Ghosts and Spirits Yijing (Mawangdui): In Changes, there is DA HENG, which generates the Two Modes. The Two Modes generate the Four Images, and the Four Images generate the Eight Trigrams.” Laozi: The Dao engenders one, one engenders two, two engenders three

BTW: I commented in your other thread on ch. 39 translation. This is much more complicated than you realize and if one only looks at the Lao Zi they will only see a part of the picture. First off, in the Mawangdui Yijing, it is NOT Tai Ji which generates the two modes (yin-yang) but DA HENG (大恆). Later authors used DA JI and then another change to TAI JI occurred. To date, almost everyone uses the later changes instead of looking at the original. Second: Interchangeability is rampant in regards to this: Tai Yi (太一), Da Yi (大一) , Heng Yi ( 恒一), Da Heng (大恒), da ji (大極), Tai Ji (太極) This gets more confusing because the Tai Yi Sheng Shui found in the Guodian Bundle "C", and represents one of the oldest cosmologies, states: 大一生水 - The Great One established Water. Sarah Allen pointed out that "the gloss in the Shuowen 說文 for yi 一 is clearly based upon a cosmogony similar to that found in the Da Yi sheng shui, except that, in the Shuowen, dao plays the role of water. The gloss reads: “The beginning; the Great Ultimate (da ji 大極). The Way (dao) was established by One (yi). It created and separated into sky and earth,transformed and became the myriad living things.” So if someone says that ONE is TaiJi that may be true on the manifest/physical realm but ONE appears to be more anciently understood as something which establishes Dao (the great mechanism by which it all unfolds). Third: Wuji is in the DDJ, Chapter 28. In most ancient texts (DDJ, Zhuangzi, Huainanzi, and Liezi), Wuji means limitless or probably the non-polar/non-dual stage. In this text, if we keep the context of ONE, TWO, THREE, it is most likely the manifest world (and not the great void or emptiness stages); Here, I might be willing to take ONE to be TaiJi as that is part of the physical movement which is the start of the unfolding, but most of the ancient cosmologies simply refer to it as [manifest] Qi. IMO, one needs to look at the whole body of ancient texts to help sort this out.