dawei

Do you mean there was a prior state when Dao does not exist or that in that prior state, there is simply no differentiation of Dao? The only difference I see between them is the former might imply Dao arises with the separation and the latter may imply that Dao is potentially there but just in a holistic form. Or maybe you want to say there is simply no difference in my points.

This reminds me of the time my Qigong master said he would demonstrate 'energy' to me, with three pushes as: Jing, Qi, Shen. He only put his fist against my chest and gave three pushes of exactly the same force. The results were as follow: 1. Jing: fell backwards with a step 2. Qi: Fell backwards in 2-3 steps 3. Shen: Had the air knocked out of me. He fought combative hand to hand but said nothing compares to Shen.

I definitely agree with seeing "Da" as "Da Yi". It is in ancient texts this way, and there was a Da Yi cult of sorts going on in Chu which took hold later in the Han Dynasty period. As for Wang as 'unifying power': This is an interesting rendering. I can't find notes I used to have about a similar usage like this but will keep looking. I notice four uses of 王 in the Guodian chapters; 25, 32,37,66. 32 and 27 as (Hou Wang) 侯王. In 25 and 66 , without Hou. How do you translate chapter 66 opening with Wang ?

I came to the same conclusion about Heaven and Earth and the comparison of the Four. Previously, I have not really applied cosmology to this chapter in order to make sense of it but the first thought that jumped to my mind is how 'heaven and earth are common' in almost all cosmologies. Most often, there is a singularity. I want to re-look at it from this angle to see what emerges but I already know that "man" will definitely not emerge as that does not show up in cosmology. Off the top of my head, I would say that the "ten thousand" emerges most of the time.

I have only read his 'Temporality' paper which he does not equate Heng to these meanings as much as to talking about time references (enduring, gushing, flow through). Although he mentions 'man lives in space time', he does not seem to go after the space angle like I would with Ji. But he did mention the idea of 'spreading everywhere' , which is how Heng is used in relation to Hou Ji 'spreading' (heng'ing) the seeds everywhere. I followed Waley's idea to connect back further in time to Shaman ritual to find an ancient Chu usage and meaning of Heng. I quickly ran into ideas like Ji. And helped me to see that Guodian Heng was replaced twice with Ji, and was dropped in five chapters. I think its meaning was simply lost on later readers; so it was easier to just drop it. I am close to sharing my notes on researching Heng.

But the kings came out of a lineage of Shaman-Kings; Eventually the kings were divining... thus they were the intercessors between heaven and earth. The oracle bones attest to this quite a bit.

Your not looking at the Chu Script used in the Guodian which has an animal with a man; http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterEtymology.aspx?submitButton1=Etymology&characterInput=%E7%81%8B 灋 Three basic parts: “氵”, “廌” and “去”. The water represented equality. The animal was the instrument . 'Fa' was the spoken rite. This dates back to a story of a judge (Gao Yao) in the time of Shun and Yu. The idea of 'removing water' is a later Han explanation once the animal is removed from the character and a simple association was made among the remaining parts. Another source I have says: The bronze character 灋(fa) was carved initially at the bronze vessel named DaYuDing(大盂鼎). in Zhou (周) dynasty. 灋(fa) was composed of 去, 水, 廌. 去 related to sacrificial rites. 水 meant sacred place. 廌 meant totem. The shape of 灋 bears a close parallel to that of (天水) 訟卦 which is hexagram 6 among 64 hexagrams in the Book of Changes(周易). ☰(天) was a hieroglyphic symbol of Heaven. ☵(水) was a hieroglyphic symbol of the Milky Way. 訟 was a worship or worshipper. The bronze character 灋(fa) and hexagram 6, ( 天水 訟卦) has a common image that a worship was performed by a certain tribe at the sacred place. The bronze character 灋(fa), therefore, means that a certain tribe, a “廌” worshipper, performs a ancient rites “大社” at the sacred place “水”.

When do you date the TYSS? Doesn't that appear to be pre-Qin? Sarah Allen points out the TYSS is almost one century before the Qin and Great One "was the defining feature of the schools of Guanyin and Lao Dan". 'Great One' is also in the cosmology described by the Spring and Autumn and the Book of Rites. There seems little doubt that "Da Yi" and even "Heng Yi" are pre-Qin. SO not sure what is unexpressed in pre-Qin?

Ok, I see. I'm not quite seeing the 'bursting forth' aspect as a part of the meaning of this chapter or TYSS but the Huainanzi cosmology comes closer with a kind of opening of heaven and pouring forth of all things. Hendrick's has an interesting discussion on this 'yet unidentified' character and gives one possibility as "Source" (源) as this would fit the yuan rime going on in these lines; and the middle line usually defines the groups rime. The problem is that it doesn't fit with the graphic you are referring to. The MWD seems to fit the Guodian graphic better.

Nice thread. The cosmology sequence aside as "the" taoist understanding or not... I would look to Chapter 64: "A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step." This may be the more practical application. But I think they both reflect an 'unfolding' existence.

Many important themes are missing... water.... mother...

Where is the character from? And that would negate the basic meaning of both texts; this is a one-directional connotation. It may work for most other cosomologies like the Huainanzi... but not the TYSS. JMO

It is interesting that you and Rene use the word 'stabilize' here; Waley proposed that "Heng" was anciently a 'stabilizing [shaman] ritual'; Heyboer sees the meaning of Heng as "steady" in a mawangdui yijing passage.

While I do think it is useful to look at the other usages, all we can say is that it is clear for the writer who write this text... and it may not mean what another wrote in another text; particularly if we also look at if we're talking about northern vs southern authors or influences too. But again, It is worthwhile to see the uses.

The Guodian Bundles have the following Laozi Chapters: Bundle A: 19, 66, 46, 30, 15, 64b, 37, 63, 2, 32, 25, 5, 16, 64a, 56, 57, 55, 44, 9 Bundle B: 59, 48, 20, 13, 41, 52, 45, 54 Bundle C: 17/18, 35, 31, 64b The one chapter most often used to show anti=Confucian sentiment is Chapter 19: In the standard text that most refer to, it seems to exhort to get rid of: "Sageliness", "Benevolence" and "Righteousness"; Confucian hallmark virtues. In the Guodian, these three characters are other characters with no Confucian/Mencius implication. Hendricks said in his Guodian commentary concerning the exchange of characters: "where later inserted as substitutions, possibly as a way of making the chapter a statement against the philosophy of Mencius". It should also be realized that the Guodian bundles included many Confucian texts as well.

Compare Cosmology Sequences: HengXian: Hengxian (Nothingness) → Field (cosmos) → Qi (undifferentiated) → “Being” (Clear Qi=Heaven and Muddy QI=Earth) → “beginning” (Myriad Things) → “movement”. Taiyi ShengShui: Great One → Water → Heaven and Earth → Spirit and Light → Yin Yang → Four Seasons Huainanzi: Primal Illumination (boundless void) → Cosmos → Qi (undifferentiated) → Clear Qi=Heaven and Muddy QI=Earth → Yin Yang → Four Seasons → Myriad Things Lushu Chunqiu Great One → Heaven and Earth → Yin Yang → Myriad Things The Book of Rites: Great One → Heaven and Earth → Yin Yang → Four Seasons → Ghosts and Spirits Yijing (Mawangdui): In Changes, there is DA HENG, which generates the Two Modes. The Two Modes generate the Four Images, and the Four Images generate the Eight Trigrams.” Laozi: The Dao engenders one, one engenders two, two engenders three

Heng Xian: (dates to same as Guodian texts) Tr. Wang Zhong Jiang There is non-being in hengxian 恒先 (permanent priority), and it is simplicity, stillness and emptiness. The simplicity is the great simplicity; the stillness is the great stillness; the emptiness is the great emptiness. It is ziyan 自厌 (self-sufficient), but it bu ziren 不自忍 (cannot restrain itself) and the Field appears. There is yu 或 (域) (the Field), so there is Qi 气 (material). There is Qi , so there is Being. There is Being, so there is a beginning. There is a beginning, so there is movement. Before the existence of Heaven and Earth ,and before activities, behaviors, developments, and creations, there was the stillness and the emptiness as one, which is in tranquil chaos. It is unified and still unclear, and produces nothing as of yet. The Qi is self-creating and self-operating, and it is not created by any other permanent thing. The production of permanent Qi is not alone; it comes into existence with the Field, which is also self-creating. The Dao of Heaven has already been formed, but the One is still the One and the reversion is still reverting. The production of permanent Qi comes from the reversion unto its own desire. Only this reverting process forever exists among all operations of Heaven. If we can understand this principle, our thoughts will not be a breach of Heaven. Being proceeds from the Field. Life proceeds from Being. Sound proceeds from the life. Speech proceeds from sound. Names proceed from speech. Events proceed from names. If the Field is not Field, there is no name of Field. If the Being is not Being, there is no name of Being. If life is not life, there is no name of life. If the sound is not sound, there is no name of sound. If the speech is not speech, there is no name of speech. If the name is not a name, there is no name of naming. If the event is not an event,there is no name of event. Lie Zi Cosmology Tr. Giles 'Hence we say, there is a great Principle of Change, a great Origin, a great Beginning, a great Primordial Simplicity. In the great Change substance is not yet manifest. In the great Origin lies the beginning of substance. In the great Beginning, lies the beginning of material form.[7] In the great Simplicity lies the beginning of essential qualities. When substance, form and essential qualities are still indistinguishably blended together it is called Chaos. Chaos means that all things are chaotically intermixed and not yet separated from one another. The purer and lighter elements, tending upwards, made the Heavens; the grosser and heavier elements, tending downwards, made the Earth. Substance, harmoniously proportioned, became Man; and, Heaven and Earth containing thus a spiritual element, all things were evolved and produced.' On one hand, there is life, and on the other, there is that which produces life; there is form, and there is that which imparts form; there is sound, and there is that which causes sound; there is colour, and there is that which causes colour; there is taste, and there is that which causes taste.

Most of the ancient cosmologies have a singular aspect until a duality emerges. I'll try to post a few more later: Da Yi Sheng Shui Translation by Hilmar Alquiros http://www.tao-te-king.org/taiyi_shengshui.htm slip 1-8: (partial) 大一生水， The Great One Gave Birth to Water, 水反輔大一， Water returned and assisted “Taiyi”, 是以成天。 in this way developing heaven. 天地反輔大， Heaven returned and assisted “Taiyi”, 是以成地。 in this way developing the earth. 天地[復相輔]也， Heaven and earth [repeatedly each other assisting], 是以成神明。 in this way developing (the “Spiritual” and the “Numinous”) “above and below”. 神明復相輔也， “above and below” repeatedly each other assisting, 是以成[陰陽。 in this way developing Yin and Yang. 陰陽復相輔也， Yin and Yang repeatedly repeatedly each other assisting, 是以成]四時。 in this way developing the four seasons. 四時復相輔也， The four seasons repeatedly repeatedly each other assisting, 是以成寒然。 in this way developing cold and hot. 寒然復相輔也。 Cold and hot repeatedly repeatedly each other assisting, 是以成濕澡。 in this way developing moist and dry. 濕澡復相輔也， Moist and dry repeatedly repeatedly each other assisting, 成歲而止。 they developed the (circle of ) the year, and the process came to an end.

Exactly

You should search: Mawangdui Yijing

Maybe we do the concept an injustice to even use the word "Duality". In fact, it may be simply our brains can't get beyond the perceived world of duality. I think the other mistake is it gets described too linear. While this allows for a transformation and return (the linear is really a loop), it still seems to miss the mark. But if I have to use the word duality (or visualize it), it is like simultaneously turning dualism form horizontal to vertical; But either way, we need need to have a limitless around the entire picture and possibly a field throughout. The big question I see is: What to call the limitless and the field? IMO, ONE (and a few other names used in ancient times) is limitless and Dao is the field. I think what happens is that the idea of the limitless and the field cannot be distinguished on some level and as the field is the absolute connection among the whole; it is also in a sense limitless; thus, the field, the grid of arising and unfolding (as Dao) is what gets talked.

I do agree that the LZ is more a brief distillation of a few concepts but many of them may pre-date the text. We should remember that the Guodian bamboo is not all the chapters but they seem to establish there is no anti-Confucian sentiment seen in later versions. But we easily see many concepts as potentially influencing the text. We may do good to consider what concepts may of influenced the Mawangdui text as well; which would easily put lots of ideas available up to that point. I do think this is an important understanding.

It should be noted that the earliest Yijing and commentary was found at Mawangdui... and the script is already different then the Guodian bamboo Chu script for Heng. It should also be noted that this Mawangdui Yijing and commentaries different from the standard version which most people comment about and quote and know (sounds like the DDJ all over again). Realize that the Chu script is not really similar to the northern scripts. My main point would be to consider those southern 'barbarian' Chu developed an ancient meaning of Heng which may be found in the Guodian as we see the Chu script being used.

I hear what you are saying and won't really disagree. But what I think we have to be careful about is anachronistic applications of later concepts [back to ancient times]. I personally like to find the original, ancient concepts although I know that later terms are more common. There seems very little argument or doubt as to the understanding of dualistic archtypes. That they are later almost universally explained and accepted as "Yin Yang" or "Tai Ji Tu" is something we probably all do. I'll provide to you the point I was getting at in my questions: One of the most famous passages in the Yijing Xici is the opening line which reads: "是故易有太极，是生两仪，两仪生四象，四象生八卦，八卦生吉凶，吉凶生大业” “Therefore in Change there is taiji, which generates the Two Modes. The Two Modes generate the Four Images, and the Four Images generate the Eight Trigrams.” -- Legge With the 1973 Mawangdui discovery of the Laozi on silk (and the Huang-Lao text on Nourishing life covering exorcisms, magic, talismans, and abstaining from grains), is also the earliest text of the Yijing and Xici (over 400 years older than the traditional Wang Bi version). In the Mawangdui version, the same line reads: 是故易有大恆 - “This is why the Changes has Da Heng” !!! HENG... Imagine that... NO TAI JI...

A tricky part to this is 2-D drawings on paper to represent the thought... When I look at your diagram, I am letting the parts float a little bit to see where they settle; so they are more 3-D in my mind. I personally think the one mistake made among most cosmology interpretations is it is explained too linearly... too 2-D. I do see that you two have diagrams which appear to try and avoid that. At least that is my view of the two diagrams. I am glad you explained about "Tao" outside the circle... I did not pick up on that... Now it is truly more 3-D in my mind. What one would have to be careful of thinking of Dao as the 'matrix', the grid or lines... as in very ancient use, there is the concept of "field" arising first... and that field is the expansive cosmos (space-time).