dawei

This exact line is exactly why I say that the entirety of the first three lines are to be considered incomplete... this line alone proves it. Not Daoist thought. If one doesn't grasp this, then the whole section really won't make sense.

Here was the relevant section I found: (LL beginning sentences and opening generalizations) now, as regards: 夫仁者 now (as regards) 仁; 夫道若大路然 now the Way (Tao) is like a broad highway; 夫何憂何懼 now what is there to worry about? 夫如此，夫如是 only so; 夫豈不知 now don’t I (dosen't he) know? 夫既如此 now that it is so; that being so; 夫唯不爭，故… it is because he does not contend, therefore…; From: A Concise Grammar of Classical Chinese fū 夫 (M. 1908) Noun: "man." when pronounced fú, it may have the following meanings: Demonstrative pronoun: "that one, he." Introductory particle to indicate a topic: "[As for, regarding] that one . . . " Fú may be combined with hé 何, giiving fú hé 夫 何 which means "whatever, however," &c. Final particle: "is it not?" (like the French n'est-ce pas?). In this last use it represents a fusion of bu 不 and hū 乎, and does not represent an development of fū (man) or fú (he, that one.) Alquiros notes as an example for DDJ8: 13. 夫 (initial particle) also: above all, because / vor allem (darüber hinaus), weil; here: 夫唯 for only (just) / denn nur (gerade).

Here is a very useful website for looking at word combinations and usage: http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/Lindict/

Wooden... as opposed to what other material for the bridge? I wouldn't really disagree with the addition of 'wooden'. That is true; the ox is not specifically stated as on the bridge; but Ferguson also does not mention if there is a retinue (人從) involved. But I don't see a need to separate out the first half mention of the ox and second half mention of the bridge. I have Ferguson's book but have not looked at that in quite a while. He only mentions the poem as showing the 'Zen-flavor contradictions'. As to what you share, I have never see or heard that aspect. Interesting to say the least. Thanks.

I can only give an amateur understanding, but the philosophical meaning is almost divine, IMO: Emptiness: Does a hoe work alone? [Together, a hand and hoe produce the result] Form: Does the buffalo walk alone? [Together, the rider and buffalo describe the path] Above: Does the bridge alone cross? [When we cross the bridge above, we cross the water below] Below: Does the water not also cross? [When we cross the water below, do we not also cross by the bridge above]

The problem with the text is as Hendricks points out: That line 5-12 may be a separate meaning/section. So there are two approaches: 1. Refer to line 5 to understand line 6 2. Refer to all the previous lines to understand line 6 I think that one can resolve both options the same way; Look at line 4 usage of Zi. I'll comment on the Guodian line: 民莫之命而自均安 "This is not the people's fate [to control this] but the self-equalizing nature of things"

Hi Rene: Some links: Not complete notes but at least a PDF: http://www.labirintoermetico.com/09IChing/Wilhelm_R_The_I_Ching_or_Book_of_Changes_(abriged).pdf Web based. To see H.E. example below of the notes, go to Hex 32 and then 'mouse over' the comments and you get more info: http://www.pantherwebworks.com/I_Ching/

I think you are getting very close here. The middle and end of the chapter reveals that the opening lines are meant to be understood as 'incomplete' [wisdom]. It can be conveyed in translation in various ways. I don't necessarily agree with the construct within each line that "A" rejects "B"; I think all three lines in their entirety are to be rejected. It is almost like saying: The common wisdom is found in the following three sayings.... but these are incomplete wisdom. --- I also agree with Mike and Rene on their comments; this is how I view the chapters.

I have only done Mudras in clinical settings for healing others... IMO, You should just practice it on others and not yourself, if what you want is some response from others.

Empty hands holding a dictionary end up with empty meaning... It is not about empty hands but the hoe itself (or the inability to hold it) due to its emptiness. It is not about an empty hand but an empty hoe in the end. It is not about the walking along or walking steps of some person... it is the walking of the buffalo ! Amazing how we have to insert ourselves (as humans) in the meaning. IMO, the idea that the bridge flows is silliness. While it beckons back to zen story of "the mind is blowing and not the flag blowing" the construction is more straight forward: It is already stated that one is on 'top' of the bridge (crossing), so when the water is mentioned it is inherent (without saying it explicitly) that the water is meant as 'below' the bridge. Thus, we still get the construction in a poem: What moves above simply means that what is below is not moving (from a relativistic point of view). That is my personal interpretation.

This may also be of interest: to read Galvany's Death and Ritual Wailing in Early China: Around the Funeral of Lao Dan http://www.academia.edu/2549850/Death_and_ritual_wailing_in_early_China_around_the_funeral_of_Lao_Dan

Hi Sree. There may be something lost in translation and the translation is often from words to our cognition of the words. having said "Idiotic Taoist" is, IMO, either incredibly clever or incredibly insightful; I personally take it as both. It is about someone who has gone full circle (maybe more than once) and realizes that to attempt to know Tao is a journey of chasing one's tail. Once you realize you are chasing your own tail [in the pursuit of knowing Tao], at some point you simply realize the "Idiotic" Way... It is not "nothing good to say about your relationship with Tao"; It is to say our feeble attempts to claim to say something about our relationship with Tao. I do not claim to mean this is exactly the experience you write against, but I am just paraphrasing an understanding I can see. Hope all is good

Hui Neng; Huang Po Li Erh Xi Wang Mu

Why not just ask your body what it wants instead of a group of internet wannabees? Regardless of whatever I tell you to do, it is not necessarily what your body wants. 1. Ask your body 2. Ask the food It really is that simple but you need to pay attention. JMO.

It seems Rene's alter for Sree turned into a lynch rope. Sorry to see it go this way. For Rene, and her hope of something useful for another member: No good deed should go unpunished. It was a good idea at some point.

After reading four pages quickly, I missed the one word in your 29th post. To view Dao as separate or out there is to contain it; to limit it. Or if one wants to put it in a container (aka. alter) for worship or reflection, it is contained (limited) in this way too. Although I don't think one has to think of it as contained just because they built an object of reflect for it. It could still be the limitless in the mind and/or heart... but your point would be: what's the point of reducing what is limitless down to an object then; you can simply recognize it for what it is without the need of an object. We can let the alter be the limitlessness it already is. This was just an analogy; I don't know that people were talking of worshipping Dao... Or maybe I should say I hope not.

I know what you mean. I had some Korean Ginseng directly from Korea. My wife knew someone living there and they knew exactly which brands and quality to get. I also bought some for a friend who is highly sensitive to energy and he had used Ginseng in various forms before. He tried this Korea Ginseng and couldn't believe it. Anyways: I've not found anything similar, even online and appearing as even made in Korea. I would be interested if you find something worthwhile.

Sree, I think by 'containers', Rene means 'compartmentalizing'; breaking apart the Grand Unity into 'this' and 'that'. If there is no separation then what is one really trying to find? Like when someone says "I want to find myself"; it seems that it is just a mental obstacle for them, not really an external discovery. This all being said, you said you felt compelled to worship, even if it was the wisdom. SO maybe your alter and what you want to do is really to pay respect and honor that part of humanity which reveals such things like the unknowable or beyond (I am saying in such a way as I think you are thinking, this is not my thinking). So far, I see you as focusing on an alter for the wonderment of it all; not spirits or deity aspect.

I do think there is a great metaphorical point in this. I once joked to a friend of mine who just had a baby that it would take him less than a year before he would be unknowingly teaching the infant the art of brainwashing... enforced [*put anything here you want*]. We didn't talk about it till I visited almost a year later. We meet a year later and as he interacted with her... I suddenly commented: "I see the initiation has started...". He looked at me and then laughed uncontrollably for a few minutes. Then finished dressing her...

The paradox is not illogical on some level. The logicians wanted to point out the simultaneous aspect; They argued the sun at noon is both raising and falling; man is both living and dying. To arrive at Yue yesterday is to have planned it yesterday; that is not any different than going there today. They are 'one and the same' part of the plan. The gist of this chapter is about comparisons which fall away and one is left with singularity. Not sure where 'earlier' comes from in: earlier than one's big brother? If you want to really translate Xiong as brother instead of man, it should be understood that Xiong and Man are also simultaneous; thus, it means either "brothers" or "brotherhood of man". Then comparisons throughout the opening lines are preserved. JMO.

I think you will find the Confucians tend to follow the idea of Heng as permanent and eternal; this seems to stem from a famous passage in the Classic of Poetry where the moon moves to fullness and 'never waning'... and applies that to the longevity of success. Sarah Allen in her study in TYSS said: The Shui di 水地 chapter of the Guanzi 管子 is the only pre-Han text in the received tradition that discusses water as a first principle in an explicit manner. The origin and date of that chapter are difficult to determine, but it probably belongs to the late Warring States Period. It states that the earth is fundamentally water, as are all the myriad things that live upon it; and as a result several scholars have attempted to relate it to the Da Yi sheng shui.20 Not only is the Shui di similar to the Da Yi sheng shui cosmogony in giving priority to water, but it seems possible that it was originally a part of a larger work in which water was taken as the source of the sky as well as the earth, which would indeed agree with the Guodian text. If we compare the ancient cosmologies, only a few are condensed as One to Two (and explicitly state that as Heaven and Earth). Those that have a little more detail reflect something else inbetween Nothingness and Heaven and Earth.

That sounds fine... but I'm still not sure why your raising as you are. Whether someone states serenity and mental health explicitly or through a metaphor of the infant state, it doesn't matter to me... but maybe you just don't like metaphor and stories. Some people need straight talk. That was already done so why would I repeat it... I like stories and metaphors. It's not for everyone.

It's just a semi-metaphorical story, analogy with microcosm overtones... Your over-analysis it, IMO... or else we just forget that LZ also talks about an infant state and forget the whole idea.

Now you've started it ... Asking 'ism' and 'ist' questions always brings out the best and worst How about some reverse question: If we told you to follow 6 steps and 2 truths (which at least makes it shorter than the 8 fold path and 4 noble truths) would you agree it is better and easier? I'll use a life example to illustrate... not sure if you have children or not but I am sure you can visualize the ideas: A child comes into the world with wide eyes, open heart, and healthy laughter and is completely at ease (at least after that spank by the doctor). In their own mind, however blank, they are completely One with the Oyster world around them. Life is on their terms and they function in almost every way effortlessly but as if according to some unknown internal clock. (their waking time from day to day is more precise than a quartz watch). They do not know left from right; but they produce such movements to glance around. They do not know yes or no; but they can turn their nose away from certain smells. They don't know friend or foe; but they can cry like an air raid. As they grow, they learn life, speech, and ways from those mammoth entities which tower over and revolve around them (ie: humans). Their stomach pumps like a two cycle bellows. They are fearless when sitting among animals. Without even a tutor, they can soon verbalize speech. Now, look at yourself: How do you compare today to this so-called 'helpless, infantile' state? Or should I ask, "where in life did the infant in you stop listening to the inner voice and connection"? (rhetorical to us all !) Daoism is this same story. You are the child (as are the other ten thousand things). The world is your mother. The world has a natural flow, cycle, and way to effortlessly operate; Grow the innate connection to this motherly Way and you'll be at One with it. The ancients saw man as a microcosm of the universe. We have a universal guide. All of creation has a common beginning. This common beginning is the Mysterious Mother of all. If we know the Mother, we may know her offspring. Know the offspring, yet stay with the Mother, -- Ni, Chapter 52 But somewhere between infancy and adulthood we got off track and we went left instead of right. The innate connection was desensitized by school and friends and games and fun and relations and, some stuff which is not so fun after all because we traded our innate spirituality for religious morality and things became 'right and wrong; good and bad'. Daoism is this same story: When the inner connection is put aside, morality arises and the natural order is exchanged for human understanding. When humankind strayed from the natural way of life, relative social disciplines began to appear. -- Ni, Chapter 18 When one is one with universal nature, universal nature is one with him. When one is one with universal virtue, universal virtue is one with him. When one deviates from universal nature, deviation keeps him from universal nature. -- Ni, chapter 23 And somewhere along the line, that understanding takes a step back and realizes we are not sure if we sold our soul to the devil or not, but something seems amiss. What we don't realize is that this was not our understanding but the dormant inner connection waking up. We just want to still take credit for anything we do. But as we listen to this inner voice more and more, we want to find some answers and figure out how to 'fix it'. So we want to know , "what to do", "what to practice", "how to become an 'ist' of this inner voice. And we hear ten thousand voices on the internet giving us advice on what to "do"... Daoism is the same story: We need to settle down, empty our thoughts and get back to that inner voice... it has never left us. One does not separate one's being from the subtle essence of the universe. -- Ni, Chapter 2 When people lack a sense of pure spiritual piety toward natural life, then awful things happen in their life. Therefore, respect where you dwell. Love your life and livelihood. -- Ni, Chapter 72 One with wholeness of virtue has an unconditioned mind. He regards the mind of all being as his own mind. He is kind to the kind. He is also kind to the unkind, for the subtle nature of the universe is kind. He is faithful to the faithful. He is also faithful to the unfaithful, for the integral virtue of the universe is undeceiving. In the midst of the world, he dissolves all minds into harmonious Oneness. -- Ni, Chapter 49 Be the stream of the Universe, ever true and flowing, without preference. Become simple, yielding and soft as a child. Being the stream of the Universe, be an example to the World; approach life with an open mind and an open heart. Dwell in the infinite. -- Flowing Hands, Chapter 28 Do not seek fulfilment, but feel the Dao in your heart. By not seeking fulfilment, nothing is changed. -- Flowing Hands, Chapter 15 That is the story of Daoism... The 6 steps: 1. To not seek fulfillment 2. Approach life with an open mind and an open heart 3. love your life and livlihood 4. Be kind to the kind and unkind 5. Be one with the universal, spiritual Mother 6. Dwell in the infinite The 2 truths: 1. All of creation has a common beginning. (equal opportunity; no preferences; no judgments on who you are) 2. One does not separate one's being from the subtle essence of the universe. (people stray; the universe doesn't) The ultimate path is within, not Q&A here. I made the steps and truths based on the Laozi chapters... Hope you enjoyed it. thanks for the thread.

I like that you look at contemporary texts to draw an understanding... I do the same. The problem is that you overlook the obvious here: GREAT is synonymous for The Great One. Maybe you didn't know: Great (DA - 大) is the original Character for Tai Yi Sheng Shui... It was first: DA Yi Sheng Shui ! Later editors like to spice things up by replacing DA with TAI... they did that with the Yijing too... no harm, no foul. The problem with translating as Large and Fanqie is that these words are really saying the same thing as the DA Yi Sheng Shui you were appealing to.. Compare: DDJ25: 潰曰轉 轉曰返 DYSS: 水反輔 --- As to HENG... the boat and heart radical are not till hundreds of years after the Guodian... added by the northern elite after unification and burning of books and creation of dictionaries with some glosses which are silly at times... The Guodian Heng is really simple: Two lines: Heaven and Earth Left side: Moon (or twilight) Right side: Divination (卜) Are you telling me your feeling a pulsation from this? Put on your Shaman hat and then tell me what you feel...