dawei

Sorry... These few lines are simply lacking in any detail.... All those who expound detail is because they put that book down to see other ancient texts which might explain the detail. You need to read the Tai Yi Sheng Shui and Huainanzi as the best sources of taoist creation theory. LZ is but a footnote compared to these texts.

As I just posted, the influences to Chu, and Lao Zi are in fact well established. Shen Dao (慎到) or Shen Zi (慎子) was from Qi but his works were found on bamboo in Chu... he appears to have first penned the idea of Wu-Wei with an appeal to how heaven operates (ergo, DDJ5 is almost taken from Shen Dao too). I don't completely disagree with your point of the metaphysical angle but I think we are too stuck on looking at one book among an obvious borrowing. LZ may of made it more metaphysically understandable but it is clear that other thinkers knew this too. I find a few problems with pushing this point... among them is that the Qing dynasty was ruled by the non-Han folks called Manchu's... and your trying to imply these northeast barbarian Manchu's were applying Wu-Wei? Please... Let's keep the history in check here. The Manchu were 'a semi-sedentary people' from Liaoning province. I have visited their family grounds which now is a forgotten past footnote in dynasty history. But they were remarkably inept at political-military control of such a vast land. They forced all western trade to the southern ports, far from the capital Beijing... The western sin in the opium wars is a smear most forgetten. And while they banned the drug and could not, from a distance, enforce the ban, the Qing eventually did so. They tossed the drugs into the water just as the American Revolutionaries tossed the British Tea (actually, chinese tea) into the Boston Harbor. This is not mystical Wu-Wei but the performance was repeated many centuries later in Jerusalem as Jesus threw the sellers out of the temple...

If I may ask, and I am serious as I know you are very serious in your works and I have enjoyed reading them: 1. Do you view any tradition prior to LZ? What 'ancients' or past sages does he refer to? 2. Do you view his land of Chu as 'superstitious, mystical barbarians' as the other areas did? And why did other areas think of Chu in this way, which could include their strong shamanistic and spiritual tendencies? 3. Is there any reason to have resistance towards seeing the spiritual, primitive, shamanistic naturalism which spooked the other lands as something that this 'official in the imperial archives' had privy to grow up in and read and work with?

I would say that the Confucians did it from an attachment point of view and the daoist from a detachment point of view. Confucian Example: The sage loves to mold and perfect the culture of the world, endowing people with the talents of a shi and junzi. Thus, he does not conceal himself from the world, and he does not separate himself from the common people. Daoist Example: They who hold fast and cleave to the Dao are complete in the qualities belonging to it. Complete in those qualities, they are complete in their bodies. Complete in their bodies, they are complete in their spirits. To be complete in spirit is the way of the sage. (Such men) live in the world in closest union with the people, going along with them, but they do not know where they are going. Tr. Legge

"Wet Nurse" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wet_nurse A woman can only act as a wet-nurse if she is lactating. It was once believed that a wet-nurse must have recently undergone childbirth. This is not necessarily true, as regular breast suckling can elicit lactation via a neural reflex of prolactin production and secretion. Some adoptive mothers have been able to establish lactation using a breast pump so that they could feed an adopted infant. Dr Gabrielle Palmer states: "There is no medical reason why women should not lactate indefinitely or feed more than one child simultaneously (known as 'tandem feeding')... some women could theoretically be able to feed up to five babies."

I can understand this. But you should make sure you completely accept him for who he is and where is his in his life. You can't change him, only he can. You can offer some guidance/advice/help but only if he really needs or wants it or is open to it. Being a objective player who can see the subjective going-ons play out in his life and his son's is not easy. But at some point he will realize you seem to not take his life faults personally but with compassion.

In Yang, Jwing-Ming's books, he simply shows it as the same as microcosmic but instead of going up to the back of the neck it goes along the arms and out the palms. If someone explains how to upload a file I will share the section I am mentioning. The macrocosmic orbit I usually do is really akin to the Meridian Wheel. Each meridian in turn feeds the next meridian till you go from feet (Yin arising) to tips of the fingers and then it starts its path back to the feet (Yang descending). One can do this as a "pat' (yes, pat the path with your arms) to wake up and stimulate the meridian path too.

Is this showing up in other areas? 1. Liver is paired to Gall Gladder: Do you have swelling in those areas in the head (headache usually perimetering the ears)? 2. Liver assists the stomach: burps, reflux feeling? This is just to get you to recognize your bodies response to what is going on beyond just the liver. I would slightly cup (concave) my right hand and then slap the liver/gallbladder area about 20 times. Does it cause you to cough, burp, have a bad taste in your mouth, etc? If it is not this bad, then on each exhale, imagine turbid Qi as blackness coming out of the area. Or think of a jackhammer in inhale and dust arising on exhale. And as you progress through the 20, direct that flow down the right leg and outside of you. Stop the slapping and continue to push out your leg to completely clear it. Maybe 5-10 breaths visualizing anything left over as going down the leg and outside of you. Repeat 2 times. Then finish it up with putting your hand over that area and smiling... and imagine the color Green. About 2 minutes. As you are ready to finish this, raise your hand off your liver area and move it in very slow circles. Clock-wise or counterclockwise? Your body will tell you which way it wants it. Try one way and the other way and the path of least resistance will speak to you.

What is hard to really know is what exactly Ni means by his usage of "Those who seek and attain the Way must have planted their roots and virtue in one or two or even five lifetimes." Is this buddhist reincarnation, taoist reincarnation, the dao reincarnated, or immortals re-embodiment, etc. If we wanted to pursue a discussion of what Ni meant, that seems relevant to the study. Then we should look at the meaning of "Sage", "Immortal" and the history of that in ancient writings. If one wants to disprove it all then they need to provide evidences of the above usage (or lack of), but then that is not really studying the meaning of the text. So while I don't disagree with surprise of the post being move, I am equally not unaware of why it would happen. There seems to be a general lack of understanding of such above issues because people stick to only the DDJ and the minute anyone looks outside of it they want to cry foul about the use other texts and its potential meaning. I would hope we can explore other texts to see how they might contribute to our understanding of the tradition and time period.

In the many posts over the years I have read from you, this may be the essence of all of it. If one is understanding life/reality from the sense/perception/experience, then on that level you have what you have; senses/perceptions/experiences. I think you have consistently talked of a level (or dare I say reality) beyond this. I personally agree with your position about meditation and glad you cite Chinese Buddhism to show how they chided the proverbial polishing of the stone to make it a mirror. But as was mentioned: Westerners like to practice and they like meditation as it seems a gateway to a higher level of understanding. It seems to me that most of it is simply meant to remove all dependence on the built up layers of life. So while I would personally say that there are many paths, it has probably been that meditation has some level of success in the past to quiet the mind and provide an opening. So meditation takes a front row practice. I guess instead of meditating to let go, why not just let go? Maybe the layers are just strong and that includes layers which have told us that meditation and practice is needed to overcome layers. That may be the irony: Some layers are used to remove other layers. Like an onion, what do we find in the center once all the layers are peeled back... I guess I wanted to say that I appreciate your posts and consistent position whether I completely agree or not.

I personally didn't recall having it or not here. But if new, it would be useful for an announcement. It would most likely be a 'feature' which was turned on or came with a recent upgrade/update. At another website I help at, the moderators are the ones who can see all of them.

Ni's is not a translation but an 'elucidation based upon decades of spiritual cultivation'. Once one achieves once he is saying (dropping of all duality; heart connects with integral nature; submerged in the boundless One)... is there such a great distinction between Buddhism and Taoism? Or put another way: Did Zhuang zi talk of immortals and people who 'attained Dao' ? In the ancient texts, "Sage" was akin to immortal.... and I mean even prior to DDJ or ZZ writing. So while he may use words which we want to label as Buddhist, I am not sure he would assign it to any particular school of thought; after all, the word "liberation" was simply used to say the dropping of duality

Or even the earlier traditions and texts, like Nei Ye and Shen Dao, which Lao Zi takes from... and later is the Wenzi and Huainanzi I don't think you'll get the complete picture if you read one book of anything. That might be like suggesting to go to one book of the bible to find out about God... although one has to start somewhere.

Does the pressure ever get too high or strong or move about? Just wondering if you ever do anything about it to relieve it. Great link... I'll give it again as your link has a period (.) tacked on and it won't open: http://illumina.co.rs/EN/Mental_vision.html

Do/Did you ever get third eye pain? And if so, did you find something which tends to help or avoid it?

First: Don't allow the conditioning to take hold I know that is not possible too early in age but it can be done as soon as one realizes it... it comes from one's innermost essence. If one can't find that or how to tap that, then I guess that is where technique and practice come in. I look at it like there are things to awaken or lose or clear up. Each person has their own physical-energetic-spiritual constitution with mental-emotional-psychological trappings... it's up to them to get beneath it all.

I think your just looking at the socialization of the animal. There are so many layers that they feel natural; and the people call it their nature. Look at how early we program a newborn away from their inborn nature. How many days into this world would you say the average re-programming starts?

I generally hold this position to look prior and not just afterwards but realize most do not. So nice to read it from another. I have spent some years looking at this but towards the prior periods influences from Shamanism to Spiritual alchemy. Not sure if your comments on 'hidden mystical truths' and 'religion' are prior, after, or both?

You had me at your first line... the rest was great inspiration.

@LCH: I have never felt that I am pursuing Daoism but have felt that something has been shadowing me for a long time. I just didn't know the best name to call it till I started reading eastern works (after having read lots of other westerner and eastern philosophy). I think most people call it Dao but I think that is just a part of the picture. There is something more, IMO. I think like a boat floating at sea, I simply accepted the wind's blowing, the rain's downpour, the wave's push and eventually ended up on shore. The boat and shore share this destiny now, yet all the elements always connected them. I find that what I read about explanations about Dao (and those who perceived it prior to writing) completely agrees with my innermost core. As to your comment about "truth" and letting things be. I have never been compelled to feel the need for the concept of "truth" as most hold it so important; same with "right and wrong". But I have felt the concept of 'trust' (maybe some would instead call it faith or belief) has probably been my guide. But that comes from the innermost core. @Silas: Not sure if I answered your question above. I wouldn't care about comments about 'the test of time'. There is no time with Dao, so for me it is meaningless to ask or answer. But those who followed its principles have been written about and that 'traditional' way of life resulted in a book... and people seem to want to claim this book is the start of Daoism. I disagree with that idea but I understand. @Taijistudent: Yes, sociology and observation shows how important groups are... And while I am curious observer of all this, I have never really felt the concept of 'group' was that important for myself. But maybe more like you suggest: There is a joint journey but it's more like the boat and shore to me. When you arrive there, you also know you were never really separated.

This is another comment which reverberates with me. I have never understood the almost universal belief that Taoism started with Lao Zi's DDJ book. Although I guess I have to accept the reverse criticism I get for being anachronistic and applying the term before the word was used... but I think that is the great conundrum of Dao... if we simply look at it as a horizontal timeline then we'll end up with lots of discrete parts.

If one feels there is differentiation and wants to get to non-differentiation, then they might say they want to aspire to it, or set some sort of goal to get there. They might even see it as starting a practice or something to get them from A to B. But I am not sure there is something to aspire to when it is simply already there... possibly just dormant. I guess there are methods to wake it up and for some, practice is one path. I think a person's worldview is part of the issue as they often holds lots of layers and filters. So maybe it is that, what is trapped in our mind-body needs to be cleaned up. Not sure if I am on the same wavelength as you state in your OP but it rang like a primordial low pitch gong in my ears.

I sense there was no differentiating it from life itself... Like breathing; it was inherent to their being.

By what principle do you eat, sleep, breath, laugh, hiccup, etc? While you can come up with biological explanations, I might suggest that Dao is slightly north of biological towards ontological. But as the DDJ suggests, it is prior to God, it is prior to our idea or thought of God. Thus, it is slightly north of ontological towards spiritual (or Wu-state). If you truly want the source... keep returning until there is not more return... I would only say that when you find Dao... you will find that is not the last stop. So you may be asking about a pit-stop on some level... or maybe the ultimate gate.

Actually... I think we were pinning a butterfly... to show that the flying [experience] was lost if it is all pre-destined.