dawei

I am not going to categorically disagree but are Yin and Yang untranslated in the name of God too? This may be an easy explanation for a few but it won't explain everyone. How about scholars like Gu Zhengkun (辜正坤) from Bejing. http://www.east-west-dichotomy.com/gu-zhengkun-family-nation-world/ Maybe he has spent too much time studying both cultures for his own good (or bad translation)? In any case... as you had recommended "Way", there are plenty in the east and west who choose to do that too.

The point of a discussion forum is to discuss the issue raised. You raised a question to everyone... I asked you to explain your point with gave specific examples. If you don't want to explain your assertions then why state them? What is the reluctance in folks to discuss what they claim? --- How about we take what may appear to be a fairly easy example. Is this guy, John Chang, a Taoist? After a one word answer, Why? http://www.amazon.com/The-Magus-Java-Teachings-ebook/dp/B004DNW61G/ref=dp_kinw_strp_1

Do you all see the nuance in the two statements....??? So let's take this line of thought. Do you mean study Taoism exclusively in the sense that one wants to be a Taoist or anyone who picks up the book to read and study it? What if one studies Existentialism, are they an American Existentialist? Or what is one studies all eastern philosophies, are they an American Eastern Philosopher? Are all american sinologist who dedicated most of their life study to the translation of the DDJ an American Taoists?

The long history of xenophobia cannot be overlooked; Chinese have never trusted foreigners (external fear) and their history could almost be summed up with this attitude. But once you look to the inside, it is 'group' rather than 'individual' from birth (just as the west is the other way around from birth). But the group has individual fear as well and this may insulate them their fellow man. This could be easily seen with the news of the girl who was run over by a car in china and nobody would attempt to lead any help or hand. The west was outraged. For chinese, this was common practice as if they saw nothing [which prompts them to need to act for another]. The only objection I have to "American Taoist" is simply I have yet to hear a proper homogeneous explanation that explains why every single westerner who wants to label themselves as Taoist should then be labeled as American Taoist. If this is purely a cultural assignment, then why not Canadian Taoist, Mexican Taoist, German Taoist, etc? One answer may be because it has not evolved to that point of distinction. So are we saying it has evolved to the point of distinction of American Taoist simply because some in america choose the Taoist label?

I think this is partly true as the west tends to employ much more direct meaning and the east to employ vagueness (metaphorical). This leads the former to want to find that word or thought and the latter to fill in the blanks a little bit. But I would not agree that both sides are incapable of employing the other. This might seem to imply nature cannot be changed by nurture, or it might imply that the hemispheres have a lock on what gets distributed to mankind.

I would say it is more like: The west tends to teach and live by the idea of self among others and all are connected; and the east tends to teach and live the idea of self unconnected to others. But I would say it is not going to be a 100% application. Otherwise there is no acceptance for the possibility of variation in life, which is fundamental to Dao. I also recall in another post you said that you wanted to improve this life. Is that improvement only for yourself or also for others?

The Dao is empty like the bellows or like the space between heaven and earth, but it is inexhaustible... Thus, empty may reflect content but not capacity. Also consider that Wu is a pictogram of the shaman dancers. This is often seen as a ritual of [wordless--empty words] communication between heaven and earth. Empty of words yet full of capacity to communication. What is the capacity of Dao? De. Dao is empty, yet full of De.

There is certainly some truth to that... and that is what lead to his being known as 太上老君... To stand alone is to stand above.

I don't see where you proof is for this repetitive accusation. Where do we decide which document is stand alone and which is not? Otherwise, every document may be considered stand alone but the illogic of that is obvious. It cannot be stand alone for the simple reason that Lao Zi references the past; past people, past events, etc. There are others who share this philosophy before and after him. It is part of an understanding from primitive time. Lao Zi did not invent Dao... we might be more correct to hold that Dao invented Lao Zi.

Although I disagree about "too much Yang", that is worthy of another thread. At birth we are the purest Yin we can be. There is an inevitable march towards too much Yang. Each person will possess this in different degrees and different lengths of time. Goal? Is that related to 'too much yang' ?

I am not interested in your word games. Obviously you don't want to talk about it.

Except this is a perfect description of the Neo-Confucian Wang An Shi(王安石)... He advocated cross discipline study of philosophies.

unfortunately, this still avoids the question that Cat and I asked... for examples. I know that there are times when ChiDragon does not agree with the English words choosen and then it comes down to it appears to hold an English meaning to him which most westerners would say is not how they are understanding that English in the context it is used. Maybe it is a matter of the chinese mind not understanding the English used in the same way you keep repeating that no westerner can understand the chinese? I am not sure of the reluctance to discuss this as we keep hearing over and over (probably from 4-5 members over the last year or two) how westerners will never understand the meaning and have no ability to do so... but nobody is willing to actually get beyond the accusation and simply give examples.

Yes... and currently still do... slivers like your picture... brought back from china... not in a boxed package. The problem is that it is mixed with naturally grown ginseng on a shady side of a field in northeast china... about 7 years old... and a mixed bag of animal parts include parts I should not describe online... and gou qi berries... all mixed in alcohol. It is a tonic of yang Qi which is very powerful. I often have to Yin my way out of it if I take too much. So I can't tell you which part is possibly the high quality or not... but I know all of it is quite strong.

MB... I have yet to really decipher the meaning of American Taoist. It was becoming a sticky note on anyone from America whether they choose the label of Taoist or not. Which seems a bit provincial to create a daoist cast system. I for one have never used any label. Yet, while on TTB, I have been called, Spiritual, Scholar, and American Taoist. What should be clear is that they are all wrong as each one is grabbing an elephant part and describing their emotion at the moment. It all seems a bit silly in a reductionist point of view but as you may of suggested, such 'patterns' are natural to some. To simply state wrong conclusions and live by those thoughts. There is a famous saying: "The mind [intention-Yi] leads the energy [Qi]. As I come from a Medical Qigong perspective, what the mind thinks and how the body response is of interest to me. I wonder how the the body reacts to being lead astray like this. This "natural pattern" is to lead astray.... natural and astray... How do you reconcile this to 'falling away from Dao'?

I can't view your doc88 link. Is that the native scholar comments or the actual Wang An shi text? The reason I ask is because Chan also references the Wang An Shi text for the comma placement for lines 5 & 6, but for 3 & 4, he notes another as starting that comma placement.

By your own admission.. those that kneel are interpreting based on values... IF we're talking about Dao, then kneel or not, one can talk about it. But I accept this thread is more for the kneeling inclined values.

What is your feeling about where this is heading? I mean there are dozens of books we could look at but I am not sure if it's practical to have to keep asking permission over and over for subforum created. Maybe the mod's could be given the ability to simply add subforums to this area as we have already established this manner of reviewing texts? I would not be against an "Other Documents" subforum at least they would be grouped to a subforum. But I would like to see who is interested in looking at the Shenzi text for starters.

and some (countries) pattern may be inclined towards nuclear war... And their may not be much one can do about that. But even traffic patterns have rules to ensure 'safety'. While I would like to argue that one just needs apply common sense that is not everyone's pattern; And that may be insight as to why we need traffic laws. So the application one is working with is part of the equation for understanding the patterns which emerge. I would agree that we should not get caught up in judging or moralizing patterns, which I think is what happens at times. But we are stuck with where our patterns have lead us in terms of population, societal expectations, online forums, etc.

I might agree to some degree. But I am not sure I would go as far as to make western sinology, research, and scholars as purely acting off western values. That would seem to jeopardize research methodologies. But I think this raises a very interesting point (ie: based on western values) and this may not be the thread to pursue it but I think if you gave examples then this would be an interesting line to discuss.

The Yellow Emperor's minister who is best known as the dude explaining TCM in the Yellow Emperor's Classic of Medicine. Maybe this is getting off-topic... Maybe a new thread ?

I have thought we should look at that text in the TTC forum. Maybe I'll start something on it.

I have long agreed to this representation of the shaman wearing antlers... but what I have never heard is the remote possibility that there is a connection to Xi Wang Mu wearing the Sheng Crown.... Thus, another shaman headdress. http://www.suppressedhistories.net/goddess/xiwangmu.html

And Genesis chapter 1 and chapter 2 appear to tell two creation stories...

I had the same problem on Chrome... just had to 'reload' any screen showing the error.