dawei

Agreed. Thanks for explaining it.

The village idiot is closer to the newborn child mentioned in the chapter.... there is less to "eliminate" in order to return to that child-like state.

Flowing Hand's Transmission: The first is mercy, the second is economy, and the third is being at one with the Dao. From mercy springs life and strength. From economy comes generosity. From the Dao comes the knowledge of all things. --- It surprises me that the various translations talk about being first or in front of... while other areas of the DDJ translate the word as 'before'. What can possibly be before 'all things'? Only Dao. As DDJ25 says: What is before heaven and earth? We don't seem to debate that so much...

That argue is nonsensical... but argue it if the mind wants to. Let's just stick to what your suggesting: A natural way.

IMO... The Key is in two forms: 1. Wu Ji stance -心中一无所着- heart/mind is centered in harmonious emptiness 2. Tai Ji Empty step - 一念一无所思- Singular focus [step] is empty of [weighted] distraction The first half is the original state of Wu Ji; The second half is the motive state of Tai Ji. The change from Empty [heart] to Focus [heart] is without any distraction. Now... perform the Tai Ji empty step with this in mind... There is a step which occurs but there is no weight nor distraction from the singular purpose of stepping without weight.

But your examples are NOT 'forcefully trying to achieve' anything; they are naturally forceful... That is the point, IMO.

"Acceptance is the very essence of the Tao." Ni Says: "You should dissolve all discrimination of individuality and absorb all things into a harmonious oneness... virtue is developed by highly evolved people who embrace all people and things and dispel the darkness which isolates them". "Acceptance" has been a key concept in my way of understanding and living. IT is not just a philosophical concept or 'goal'. There really is no choice on some level as the discrimination is simply our own mental construct which puts the constriction in our understanding and living. To not accept things as they are is the darkness, IMO. If we stay on the physical level with this, then it is a goal or something to attain or strive for... IMO, there is nothing to strive for; one has to simply let go and let that which hinders dissolve away. A great way to do that is to get beyond the physical to the energetic-spiritual as there is no discrimination at those levels. If one rests in this seat, then they can let go of separation; and yet live among the physical world of separation [concepts]. Another issue which Ni raises to me is that 'virtue' (De) is developed by the dissolving. It naturally comes about, not by effort but by letting go. I have never really embraced the idea that one 'practices virtue' which makes it out like we're going to forcefully achieve it. If one wants to make this an ethical issue, then so be it... but I don't think that is what is intended. I never think about 'virtue', as it is something to attain; by doing so, I am simply calling attention to my separation from it. Let go. Sit in that place of no discrimination. You'll find everything is one... and it was not by our doing, that's the Way it is. Accept its Way.

What a tease Some of this is explanation and some of this just needs to be tried or experienced. As YJM suggests about how to find the real LDT or UDT... after fixing your mind there [however long needed], you will find that 'seat'... As a new years resolution, I had wanted to do some daily-long focus on the LDT... but as I did it, I was feeling pushed aside... I was lead to the UDT instead... so I followed that instead... I found a seat waiting for me there... While there is a lot to be said for practice, one should at least realize (OPINION ALERT) that practice is not natural on some level... If your really in tune with your body, it will lead you to where you should be.... there is usually a seat waiting for you there.

Another angle is that Shenzi, who pre-dates Lao Zi and which the DDJ borrows and which the commentary on the text mentioned above, portrays the last 'evil' emperor of Xia Dynasty, Jie, compared to the 'virtuous' [sage] Yao. Yao was considered the sage-king who instituted 'rule by virtue'. Jie was 'rule by 'evil'. There may be a historical reference for chapter 60. Yao as a descendant of Huang Di may be of the Shaman line.

We heard some personal disdain about the TTC as shamanistic... so I am not sure we'll see the word-for-word debate care to tie back to the topic. While I don't mind it running a bit in various directions, it would be good to hear the topic discussed. And lest we forget, as many are making this mistake: Flowing Hands has never said he is providing a 'translation' but a TRANSMISSION. --- Now.. to get back to topic... http://haquelebac.wordpress.com/2012/06/24/%E6%85%8E%E5%88%B0-shen-dao-text-and-translation/

It may be complicated when looking at the entire thing but one is only doing one or two steps at a time for many months at times... that is rather palpable for those willing or wanting to make sense of the books ideas. I don't think it is for everyone but this is what the thread is about. --- Another general thought: YJM talks of using herbs to increase Qi and that is a way to supplement some of the steps. One has to take care when doing this as you may become too Yang. Over the last year I was drawing a lot of my energy from herbs but found I had to recently detox a bit and Yin myself down.

My main criticism of the book is as has been shared; it is difficult to make sense of the sections towards a practice. But the trick is to read Chapter 5 a few times and start by making an outline and go back and add some more detail as needed to understand each point being made. Start with the first paragraph of 5.3, this summarizes the entire chapter. A first pass outline may be as follows: 1. Locate the real center of the UDT and LDT 2. Condense the Shen in the UDT and the Qi in the LDT 3. Condition the LDT 4. Increase the quantity of Qi in the LDT 5. Embryonic Breathing 6. Lead the Qi and Shen to the LDT 7. Conceiving the Spiritual Embryo 8. Further Spiritual Qigong Development A second pass may then be as follows: 1. Locate the real center of the UDT and LDT a. One must find these centers so that the Shen stays in the UDT and the Qi stays in the LDT. b. One must be able to find it in meditation and keep their mind there. That will keep the Shen and Qi in their own center. 2. Condense the Shen in the UDT and the Qi in the LDT a. Condense Shen at Mud Pill Palace. See instructions on breathing. 3. Condition the LDT a. Massage and stimulation of the LDT 4. Increase the quantity of Qi in the LDT a. Normal Abdominal Breathing (NAB) for six months b. Reverse Abdominal Breath (RAB) 5. Embryonic Breathing a. Helps keep Qi in real LDT and increase Qi to an abundant level b. See breathing technique and how to use the mind to keep Qi and Shen at their residence c. Final stage is to bring Shen down to real LDT 6. Lead the Qi and Shen to the LDT a. See Buddhist way b. See Daoist way c. Also see Girdle and marrow breathing 7. Conceiving the Spiritual Embryo a. Lead Fire Qi and Water Qi to Huang Ting b. Lead Shen and Qi to Huang Ting 8. Further Spiritual Qigong Development a. Refine Jing; convert to QI b. Refine QI; convert to Shen c. Refine Shen; Return it to Nihility d. Small Circulation (microcosmic orbit-MCO) e. Grand Circulation f. Spiritual Enlightment (unification of heaven and earth) I would keep reading it several times until you see that it appears as linear above but I think some are concurrent.

In Yang, Jwing-Ming's book, Qigong Meditation - Embryonic Breathing, he translates and comments on the "Songs of Embracing Singularity in Embryonic Breathing" in about 17 pages. This is the practice of 抱一 (bào yī).

Here is an interesting read: http://www.daoistcenter.org/Daoism_Misconceptions.pdf

Fair enough... me too

In Ni's version, you find out that the master was posed a question about 'virtue without discrimination' and how to guide 'those who do not practice virtue and selflessness'. And 'how men and women who are motivated to attain correct awareness of their true nature calm their minds'. Ni uses the phrase: "One of virtue and wholeness takes care of those who practice virtue and selflessness'. He repeats this for those who do not practice it. The master's finally comment goes: 'Any good person who is motivated to attain awareness of the whole truth should follow the Universal Integral Way to calm the mind and harmonize it with all aspects of life". ---- Reminds me of Chapter 27: Middle section: Ni Flowing Hands: Liao:

Now that is a little unfair... as who is asking China to mass produce goods? While I will give a nod to the fact that their lack of emission policy and amount spewed out is doing damage (I think Oregon's dreary, rainy season would be preferred to Beijing's smog)... but let's also not forget that it is a volume issue: They are so large a manufacturing base they must put out more emissions by logic. If you do per capita calculations, you often find that the US is the worst in many areas... but volume does speak louder. And what is the point with Wal-Mart? Is that because "everything they sell comes from china"? If that is the case, then your actually in worse understanding then you realize... Go into any store at the mall and look at tags... Better yet, go to designer brands like Ralph Lauren or Calvin Klein and you'll see this is not about any one store; it is the whole world wanting to find someone to make their stuff cheaper so they can make more money. Greed has us by the nads... and china (and other eastern countries) are simply filling the orders.

I like how Ni's is more like a story. As Mal said [somewhere], sounds a little more like Liao's Nine Nights (The DDJ told in a story). Here is what one reviewer at Amazon said: This is not meant to be a criticism... I know that is in the other thread I am happy to discuss Walker's version and mention some stuff from Ni's where I can. I think truth can come in many forms, many translators, many places we may not expect.

If one considers the arrangement of the five organ-spirit association, then add in hun-po... your right: Xing will be the metal element. Very interesting. I don't know that the idea of 'fire and water' and 'wood and metal' (Hun and Po) equate exactly to Xing-Ming. But there is a relationship going on. Xing Training: Connecting the real self to original spirit Ming Training: Strengthening the self (health, will, etc) Most everything I read corresponds to 'combining fire and water first harmonize. Then the transformation of Jing>Qi>Shen>Dao; 1. Fire<>Water (Xing-Ming) 2. Jing>Qi (Ming). 3. Qi>Shen(Ming and Xing); 4. Shen>Dao (Xing). I read that when Qi-energy is pure, Po follows Hun; Otherwise, Hun is following Po. Two DDJ Chapters come to mind: DDJ25: PO [Man > Earth >] follows HUN [Heaven > Dao > Naturalness] DDJ10: 載營魄抱一 : Carry Ying-Po by embracing One. Zai Ying Po Bao Yi Ying Po as male and female spirits: As body and soul; Yang and Yin; Hun-Po. Bao Yi is an ancient exercise

Two interesting comments I found: Foundations of Inner Alchemy: Awakening to Reality Zhang Boduan’s works show that, in his view, 1) the first stage of the alchemical practice (“laying the foundations”) consists of the dual cultivation of Xing (Nature) and Ming (Life). 2) The second stage (“refining Essence to transmute it into Breath”) emphasizes the work on Ming. 3) In the third stage (“refining Breath to transmute it into Spirit”), the work on Xing has priority on the work on Ming. 4) Finally, in the fourth stage (“refining Spirit to return to Emptiness”) one works only on Xing. -- Fabrizio Pregadio The Classics of Inner Alchemy: Robinet is cited to say: without ming, xing will forever be stuck in inactive emptiness; without xing, ming will never attain perfect non-action.

That was a kind of Schrodinger's Cat explanation, but I get it. Thanks.

For a comparison, here is Ni's first chapter... I probably won't type further chapters but this is quite short and easy enough to show the flavor of his writing as a comparison: The line that I like, and which Mal mentioned in Walker's version is: Walker: Those who wish to know the whole truth take joy in doing the work and service that comes to them. Ni: All of his friends and followers lived virtuously and performed whatever work came to them joyfully To me, Ni does not have the condition of "if..." and it has a more, natural, Zen flavor to it.

Not that you raised this but I have felt that sometimes that Qi is given too much credit for what we think is going on. So while I often hear that the Heart Qi is so powerful, I think this is really due to the heart spirit. Based on what you said above, I say an analogy which I hoped you would comment on: Qi is not spirit. Qi effects its motion from the illusion of being separate from Spirit.

I don't understand the question as VM says "belly", "heart", "mind". We're you thinking it as an order of experience or what? What he shared is as I understand; harmonizing heaven and earth energies... in the heart. IMO, this is why the 'heart' (or rather the spirit of the heart) to be the Supreme Controller.

Your welcome.