dawei

Thanks for that... it is the closest confirmation I've had to my idea of some singularity above Dao. The Huainanzi cosmology is the best I have seen to suggest this. I call it in my translation of the section, 'the Primal Illumination': 天墜未形，Prior to the Opening of the Universe 馮馮翼翼，and the great outpouring 洞洞灟灟，of all life forms 故曰太昭。This is called the Primal Illumination. 道始于虛霩，Dao awoke out of this boundless void. 虛霩生宇宙，The boundless void gave rise to the cosmos; 宇宙生氣, The cosmos gave rise to [Primal] Qi. 氣有涯垠. [Primal] Qi spread [through space] as a shoreline. . . .

Coming from a Shaman master, does his explanation really surprise you? And consider that Xi Wang Mu (Queen Mother of the West) and Lao Zi are depicted at times with deer. Xi Wang Mu is said to have taught Yu the Great (think the shamanistic dance, the 'pace of Yu'). Deer antlers are symbols of longevity. I had read somewhere the shamanistic origin was: The path imparted by the shaman [with deer antlers as a head dressing].

I'll want to join in too when I have time. I have the daoist master Hui-Ching Ni's translation and will post in a new thread his "Introduction" as it is a rather interesting read.

I am not sure you'll find the exact chinese used in the other thread translation. I suspect it is only a partial rendering of the 'teachings' as the author wanted to publish in english. The daoist master Hui-Ching Ni's translation seems to do the same but told like a story. Here are two sources of the text: http://www.cbeta.org/result/normal/T54/2139_001.htm http://www.suttaworld.org/gbk/sutra/lon/other54_2/2139-1.htm

I do agree with this and why I made mention that they used some way of expressing what they understood.

I think all of the above. I know others don't share my point of view on this... but I see Dao as part of the Oneness; not the Ultimate Oneness of everything itself... it is the mechanism the [anything which is a part of the] Oneness follows, how it all works, regardless of the state (void, manifest). Using Man: Dao is prior to Heaven and Earth; Earth is prior to Man... While Lao Zi said Dao is prior to Heaven and Earth, Zhuangzi said something like: I was born at the same time as Heaven and Earth... So what can truly be prior to what? Anything that is a part of the Oneness aspect arises from Dao; But Dao is a part of the Oneness aspect so everything exists together at one time. I'll finish the conundrum with: Chinese use words to describe some aspect and that is no different for how they viewed that part which makes up the metaphysical or spiritual realm (or those parts of the Oneness which cannot be seen or unmanifest). They could of just left it all as 'spirit' but it turned to 'spirits' and then they for the mountain, sea, sky, ground, river, rain, etc...

It is good you made that more clear... but I was not confusing two characters... I know they are two. I am suggesting that the mere sound would not be acceptable even if another character. But thanks again so everyone can understand this better.

This may be putting the cart before the horse. The TTC is probably the last book to inquiry concerning Shang Di; the full phrase does not exist in the book. Although the more standard 'Di' occurs once, and that formula is in the oracle bones. But the one usage makes it clear that the meaning is, Dao is prior to Di... so how can that be the same It seems to me that you should first inquire as to what/who is Shang Di. This requires looking at chinese history and mythology but it should be realized the two were inseparable to the ancient chinese. This is a hint about the 'inseparable' aspect; Oneness... not transcendence. There are ancient rituals for ancestor worship so as to not separate life and death; to not separate what is on Earth from what is in Heaven. (Do you see their ancient picture of vertical, non-separating aspect for space and time?) "Shang" is simply adding a vertical prefix to Di. But Di was considered the highest deity which oversaw all aspects of life, spirits, gods, etc. Although one might be then inclined to translate "Shang Di" as "God most high", that would simply be a forced western religious conceit. So the addition of "Shang" is more a 'location' pictogram. Di was originally appealed to but was more impersonal. Later was replaced with "Tian" (also used for sky) by the Zhou Dynasty onward. After all, how could the Zhou maintain the word "Shang" for Di when they just defeated the Shang Dynasty There are plenty of myth gods and people who become gods or are ascribed as god over the course of time. Philosophically speaking, Daoism and Buddhism share more of this. Search for ancient chinese mythology or chinese gods. Archaeology shows ancient rituals and objects. It would also help to see how Confucian's viewed divinity. http://www.crvp.org/book/Series03/III-25/chapter-3.htm There are so many chinese myth stories that a few are actually sharing similarity to the christian story of creation. And one might see a similarity to the christian idea to 'reunite with God' and 'reunite with Dao', but it is more like restoring what is dormant or not being utilized. This idea of 'restoring' shows up in many different ways in the TTC, IMO. As for cosmology, one will get a chinese view of how it all begain; more like a big bang with light energy coming forth from a spiritual ancestor called the void;. How did all of that transforming and manifesting process occur? That is what we call Dao. Don't separate how processes may occur in the void from the manifest today. There is a singularity (Way) which oversees it all but what results is ever-changing. The only thing constant is change. So constant and change are really two names which come from the same source and are really the same thing. They are inseparable. Now you can think Yin and Yang. Once light/energy emerges, we see it manifest into it's two building blocks. Those two inseparable parts put in motion the arising of the 10,000 things (physical world in TTC) whereby all things eventually return to their source.

Glad to hear a similar story. My mother in law is also taking CoQ10 from the US as it is available in much higher strengths. How much did you have your mom take? Another question (Yu Mu and/or ES): Her heart Qi feels rather strong, and she is physically/emotional strong; she is chinese afterall... She can go out and play racquetball and move around the court And the major heart onset problems seem to center around pressure and constriction. She has stents as part of past surguries. The Hawthorn with another mix which includes Nerium Oleander and Nicotiana Tabacum seem to quickly knock out the problem (ie: usually takes about two doses separated by 10 minutes to start to ward off the problems. In terms of Medical Qigong, I found/felt that I need to provide some cellular regenerative work. And I also decided that using the daughter and granddaughter's Qi to assist in this would bring emotional healing which I cannot provide as well as they can. Have you ever involved family in healing in this way?

H.E. Based on what I've read, it may be better for me to start another thread to separate out some generalities of the DDJ's influence on inner practices and let this thread look specifically at Xing and Ming. I will add that I think I got the Xing Ming association backwards. While I said that V.Shen equates De with Xing (Confucian's), I should of also shown that Xing is equated to higher aspect. I said the below but not sure this truly equates to Xing Ming as you are investigating. I associated Ming with Spirit but that may be Confucian thinking as the other quote I shared: Xing from Ming... Confucians saw Ming as the 'mandate from heaven' (higher) whereby man has a 'contract' to align himself (Xing) through effort. I wanted to show the general relationship of the DDJ to inner practices but that will distract from Xing Ming in the mean time. So do you want me to start another thread on that?

Ok... so it all ties together for me. Ken Cohen paraphrases Xing Ming as "body and spirit". And this shows a history for embryonic breathing [EB] as earlier and Xing Ming being a later extension and further development. http://world-news-research.com/NeidanTantra.html How the DDJ is the basis for this goes without question. There are a number of chapters which could be looked at and it will be easier to show the EB relationship, IMO, as I've read more on that but but I'm now game to share and discuss the connections.

I wanted to back up and look at some more background on this and to see if embryonic breathing [EB] (from Yang's book) shares anything. While not explicitly mentioning Xing-Ming as a dual-training method it is clear there are similarities. I suspect is it really all part of the same idea with [EB] simply the early precursor to later Xing-Ming training. Will comment later after some more comparisons. This lead me to some more interesting links and a reminder of a Guodian Document: Xing Zi Ming Chu 性自命出, which has a very interesting passage: Dao begins in Qing Qing arises from Xing Xing issues from Ming Ming descends from Heaven While this dates back to the Guodian Lao Zi, it is a Confucian text but shows how close the early thinking may of been between Confucians and Daoist (an argument I have see many times due to the Guodian findings). Confucians emphasized Qing-Xing and eventually Ming-Tian(Mandate of Heaven) but Daoist would later emphasize Xing-Ming in regards to Dao. Xunzi in light of the Guodian Manuscripts http://lucian.uchicago.edu/blogs/earlychina/files/2008/07/ec25_goldin.pdf Principes of Xing-Ming http://www.charleschace.com/pdfs/Xing_Ming_Gui_Zhi-BurtonRose.pdf

Ni is another who uses "Way" or another variation fairly consistently for Dao (or implied Dao): Ch. 1: Tao, the subtle reality of the universe cannot be described. Ch. 4: The subtle Way of the universe appears to lack strength, Ch. 6: The subtle essence of the universe is active. Ch. 9: This is the Universal Way of a life of deep virtue Ch. 15: The ancient ones who knew how to live with the subtle essence of the universe were gentle and flexible, profound and indistinguishable. Ch. 46: When the people of the world live in accord with the subtle Way of the universe, horses are used for agricultural purposes. ---- So he does not simply exchange 'Way' but describes something more about the 'Way'. Source: http://web.archive.o...ish_Ni_TTK.html

Haven't had any time to follow up but a quick note as I did a quick check: In chapter 53, 'Ming' was not the original character... so the later exchange to Ming may mean that the usage in 53 will not be compared to the use in 16(?).

Hinton is one of the few translator's who uses "Way" for every instance of Dao. I have not tested his entire writing to say if he uses it as a verb or not but this gives an example of what the OP wanted; Dao as Way. http://web.archive.org/web/20110106072526/http://home.pages.at/onkellotus/TTK/English_Hinton_TTK.html

K- I lost this thread for a long time... What did you learn? My short answer from the original post is: Your ancestor... Was that a spoiler?

fire position happens... relax... swallow... all is good.

Sometimes, I really get a great laugh with you... honestly, the exchange is worthwhile. Sit back. I'll get the next cup of green tea... The Zen Koan Mu: 無 http://peterspearls.com.au/the-zen-koan-mu.htm This koan is possibly the most famous of all and is the one most often used by the leading Zen masters of today: Because of this, the Chinese/Japanese character for MU is sometimes displayed in the dojo or teaching space where Zen students gather. One day a troubled monk approached him, intending to ask the Master for guidance. A dog walked by. The monk asked Joshu, "Has that dog a Buddha-nature or not?" The monk had barely completed his question when Joshu shouted: "MU!" The character for MU literally means "nothing." Joshu's answer was quite simply "Nothing," which was not to say that a dog lacks Buddha-nature. Naturally, both Joshu and the monk knew that Buddha-nature is inherent in all creatures without exception, which is why Joshu's "MU" should never be interpreted as a denial of this fact. The only purpose of his response was to break the monk of rational thinking in trying to understand the truth of Zen and to get him to aspire to a higher understanding of reality beyond affirmation and negation, in which all contradictions disappear on their own. Joshu's "MU" is neither a yes nor a no. It is an answer that surpasses the opposition of yes and no and directly points to Buddha-nature, to the reality beyond yes and no. Those who believe they can solve the koan MU through deductive reasoning will only spin their wheels and not gain an inch on MU. Clinging to words and expressions and attempting to interpret and understand MU intellectually is like trying to hit the moon with a stick, or trying to relieve an itch on your foot by scratching your shoe. The old masters said, "Attempting to solve MU by rational means is like attempting to break through an iron wall with your fist."

Yes. I provided my opinion and recommendation and links. You've been kind to accept it. Thanks.

Think the Zen Mu Koan... but does Mu mean?

No. [if there is no interest to research of what is shared then there is Nothing to follow as it is readily available for those who truly want to read and know]. For all those who give a crap about information sharing: I have read Hinton's chinese translations for many years to cover many poetry publications and philosophy. His DDJ translation is one of the most succinct and direct.

He properly found it. So he deserves singular recognition in this thread for doing the obvious as most men do; Listening and then researching and then sharing... What an idea for us all This gets more fun as the hours pass. Did you still need somone to post the entirety of Hinton's translation so you don't have to take your feet off the foot stool while you post

He simply quoted my link... I guess it was easier to wait for someone to do that and then type some response rather than just look at the link??? You certainly keep it fun here

I am not speaking for others. I am letting others answer your inquiry where those answer reside... True research is like practice. A quick dictionary lookup is not the answer. If you are not truly interested in answers then this is just a game... If you only seek to get everyone to agree to your point; then this is just like a cult post. What do you want to achieve by this? Hint: This was Steve's meaning, IMO !

You are assuming no one can cite the TTC simply because of no responses? You completely mis-understood Steve's counter-post... But it seems others understood it. Expand your thinking when you get no response. What you ask is fairly nonsensical to not deserve direct response... at least for me. I told you to read Hinton. It is that easy.