dawei

It is a tricky balance here at times... It is not about 'speaking for others' but letting others speak... Acceptance of others view, whether member or quote. I tend to want to help others find their path instead of dictating the path they must take... I understand and accept that others want everyone to accept their way as the proper way. I hope each can find assistance and not insistence. @Anamatva: Your right... would of been better to quote something... what if the link breaks in the future? Thanks in return

Section 6: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/laozi/ Section 3: http://www.iep.utm.edu/laozi/

H.E: Ok... I walked away and had a game of racket ball and it seems fairly clear to me... here is Occum's Razor applied. I often want to see the transformation and microcosm in understanding such issues. but it's seems simple enough to me. Alchemy is about transformation but more specifically the return path. So we should look at the entire circuit. The Great Way: Tao <-->Wu/Void<-->Spirit/Shen <--> Energy/Qi <--> Physical/Jing Jing is also referred to as 'essence' and is the physical aspect. So I can see the easy microcosm relation to essence as Xing (essential nature--physical)... and spirit as Ming (eternal nature--Tao). To show transformation in the DDJ is easy... It is one of the main messages throughout... Not sure I actually have to do show passages for it.

Maybe no one really thinks this is of interest to discuss... I think you didn't really understand what Steve pointed out. If your truly interested in your original question: Look at Hinton's translation. He uses "Way" throughout his translation.

I prefer dog... all parts... and in my alcoholic brew which seeps in a jug at home it includes, 狗鞭. I am not buy or selling this... but people are welcome to taste it. This is becoming one with the dog in us... next step is 天人合一

Sorry... Ch. 51: 夫莫之命而常自然 - Wang Bi version Ok... I get your point. @Chidragon: here is another link: http://silenttao.com...-xing-and-ming/ Just to summarize: The topic, from my understanding, is how do the later ideas of Xing-Ming (Quan Zhen Taoist writings for example) possibly originate from the DDJ? Although I might agree that most alchemy threads may not belong in this sub-forum, this is asking specifically to explore the origin of Xing-Ming ideas in the DDJ. I would tend to leave the thread here and see where it goes. This is not often discussed about the DDJ and while I can predict there will be disagreement, it may be interesting nonetheless. Yang, Jwing-Ming's book on Embryonic Breathing has many references to the DDJ. Most (if not all) of alchemy texts clearly have regard for the DDJ as the source of understanding. IMO, from an alchemy point of view... this is a natural (and necessary) investigation for understanding the influence of the DDJ.

Your just sharing personal belief and judgement, IMO... Your only doing what you accuse others of doing: Following a belief in something which is not scientifically proven or verifiable. So I don't think we'll get anywhere with this, nor the idea of knock-offs. This goes back about 5,000 years and has simply found some modern ways to exploit it.

Yes. I think it is explained fairly well here: http://www.imperialt....net/daoism.htm Realize that the OP stated: "These terms were very central to some Quan Zhen Taoist writings." It is not simply a linguistic discussion. You are trying to force it that direction. Based on what the OP comments, it is also an alchemy discussion. http://en.wikipedia....Quanzhen_School The meaning of Quanzhen can be translated literally to "All True" and for this reason, it is often called the "All Truth Religion" or the "Way of Completeness and Truth." In some texts, it is also referred to as the "Way of Complete Perfection." Kunyu mountain in Shandong provice Weihai city is the birthplace of Taoism(Quan Zhen Religion).[2] With strong Taoist roots, the Quanzhen School specializes in the process of "alchemy within the body" or Neidan (internal alchemy), as opposed to Waidan (external alchemy which experiments with the ingestion of herbs and minerals, etc.). The Waidan tradition has been largely replaced by Neidan, as Waidan was a sometimes dangerous and lethal pursuit. Quanzhen focuses on internal cultivation of the person which is consistent with the pervading Taoist belief of Wu Wei, which is essentially "action through inaction." Like most Taoists, Quanzhen priests were particularly concerned with longevity and immortality through alchemy, harmonising oneself with the Tao, studying the Five Elements, and ideas on balance consistent with Yin and Yang theory.

I think the thread is too open ended. Without a specific request of the type of meditation to discuss, we're going to hear varying experiences and methods. There is nothing wrong with that if that is the OPs idea: Just get varying ideas shared. So each person can share their meditation method/teaching and what they do. With that being said, I tend to think of whether I want to do: 1. Mind engaged or not 2. Stillness or not For me, the mind engaged can be mantra/prayer, intention or visualization (ie: Qi, color). I tend to have the mind engaged and do either stillness or dynamic. If dynamic then either I am doing the physical movement or intention/Qi is doing the movement. When I do something with mind disengaged then it tends to be stillness.

Sree and Chi; thanks again. This was my point... that a word needs to be understood in the philosophical context. But I am not a spiritualist. I am actually more a scholar with training and practice so that experience can be checked against what I research. I am simply open and I don't try to limit what may be behind the universe or beyond. And I don't limit myself to an understanding of Dao based on only the DDJ. I also don't find any mystery in the DDJ and why I suggested the other day you look at Xuan as original or primordial. I understand your disdain for western attempts to look at eastern thought but Dao doesn't limit so why should we judge? I am not opposed to "way" for Dao as the 10,000 all have their own coming and going... but I don't think there is only one perfect way. To me, the constancy of Dao is ever-changing-ness, or transformation. If I had to say if the process is singular or not, then that is fine... but what we observe in the manifest world is varying 'ways'.

Xing does not appear in the DDJ. And as you point out, Ming is in 16 but also in 53. Vincent Shen in The Encyclopedia of Chinese Philosophy, Laozi, says that that the Laozi concept of De(德) replaces the Confucian concept of Xing (性). The alchemic relationship of Xing-Ming was probably developed later and outside of Laozi's thought. http://www.all-dao.c...st-alchemy.html http://laoziacademy.us/wangtj.pdf

Sree, Daoist, Confucians, and Buddhist all used the idea of "the way 道 (tao)... was it universal or specific to their way and explanation?

First: Therapy is not common in china because it is almost taboo for anyone outside of the two people having an issue to tell them what to do... People do not interfere with other people's business; and people do not go outside of their family to get advice. The principle of Dao is universal and not hovering over china... So an understanding is accessible by anyone... but non-chinese clearly pose some challenges to having that inner sense on some level. Sree shares good insight into issues like chasing wealth while lighting joss sticks. But China is not westernizing that quickly. That may be western media or Taiwan or Hong Kong talk... Don't believe everything you read or hear from the media. This may be an example of where the west simply may not really understand what is in the east... Shall we discuss the chapter?

It's more about isolationist thought and intolerance of foreigners (outside opinion)... China has a very long documented history of that. Sorry that I offended you. It is simply this trait which one still sees today in some fashion but if we agree to disagree and can discuss some items without offense then we show tolerance for other opinions. But I would extend to you that you have a point in the midst of this issue but to claim no westerner or translation can capture it at all defeats the purpose of bothering to discuss it (as was said). IMO, one may not really understand deeper meanings of Lao Zi by only reading the DDJ... it helps to know history and read other daoist classics as well. Knowing the areas that Dao influenced (TCM, energy work, feng shui, spirituality, etc) also helps. So while I hold this position, it does not stop me from discussing whatever levels can be discussed.

Chi and Sree... thanks. Sree's point of ranking Confucius as a Sheng Ren was the issue I was discussing with another... IMO, he is only a Sheng Ren as a lower understanding of the word (as scholars view the meaning) and not in the Daoist spiritual sense (that Chi clarifies as a different philosophy and term usage--which I agree with). I am not looking to specifically debate this issue but wanted to understand people's usage of some related terms.

Without a long dissertation in response Isn't the relativeness only in one sense [eye] and transmitted to our mind's eye and then transmitted to our senses and then transmitted to our understanding? Did I ask this before of you from another thread? There is a sudden deja vu... do we recycle our questions? I guess what I mean is: The entire body of explanation about Yin and Yang is simply our manifest perception of things... but not the reality of things (or non-things). So I assume you are sticking to an 'explanation of things'.

Chidragon: You translate (based on what sree quoted) Sheng Ren as 'gentleman'. Is that truly a Lao Zi association in your opinion? The reason I ask is that I was recently engaged in discussion over such phrases and I am more and more convinced that Sheng Ren is a higher association than Jun Zi or Zhen Ren. Daoist used: Zhen Ren; Sheng Ren (often translated as true man; sage) Confucians used: Jun Ren (often translated as gentleman) Confucius himself denied he was a Sheng Ren and contrasted it with what he was (Jun Zi). Lao zi does not appear to dis-associate himself with this idea... and it seems to me that Sheng Ren is one step away from Xian Ren (仙). If we look at those given deity titles (whether we believe or not.... just scholarly exchange), do we find a Jun Zi elevated to Xian Ren? I guess my ultimate question is: Is gentleman a little lower than what Sheng Ren may require for a translation?

Realize that 'valley' is not the original chinese... the original is 浴神. And realize that this 'figure of speech' also occurs in the Liezi (列子) and the Baopuzi (抱朴子). Ergo, it is an ancient formula mentioned by three persons which are not really of scholarly backgrounds but of daoist energy and immortality... But I did want to simply share with you my scholarly research from the past... I honestly hope we can discuss and exchange such ideas but we don't have to agree.

And to an understanding of daoism, TCM, etc... you are not a victim? LOL You forsake all the earliest understandings of Lao Zi in exchange for a Wang Bi and communist purging of the spiritual aspects of TCM and daoism... Your too funny sometimes at your own ideas. Realize you want science as your yardstick. Actual experience in what Lao Zi talks about seems irrelevant to you. Westerners have no ability to understand... anything other than your scholarly way is a belief system... That is fine and limiting. I'll turn to energy work; healing; reading the ancient texts; and allow an understanding for why Lao Zi is also referred to as 太上老君. I look to expand and allow and accept the history which Lao Zi is a part of. I hope you are at least are tolerant that some people are capable of exploring such experiences and understanding instead of blaming obstacles. Is that limiting? We simply have different approaches. Can you tolerate and allow that here?

What Taoist cult is that? I don't profess to follow any lineage or any specific practice... other than an interest in Medical Qigong. I am eclectic in accepting many ways, teachings and energy work. Your welcome to approach such topics by reading books alone but let's try to keep stay calm and be careful of accusations which are silly. Realize the Confucian sub-forum in another area.

I would agree because Yuan Qi has fully returned to its source; It has transformed back to Yuan Shen.

In the opening transformations from Spirit to Energy, Yuan Qi is formed. Yuan Qi is undivided Qi or prenatal Qi housed in the LDT. IT is largely for this reason that energy practices start with teaching how to develop the energy in the LDT. But it is much more than just about the living body. http://www.healingtaousa.com/articles/taoalchemy_ch08.html

Your happy meal is a Confucian understanding of the DDJ... Have it your way (Burger King slogan).... but realize that Tao is simply a part of something larger... so, IMO, Tao is not the final answer because Spirit is not Tao alone... And you should consider 玄 as origin or primordial... nothing mysterious except as a stumbling block...

welcome back... Do you see this chapter a symbolic for inner cultivation? To take it one step further, since immortals are being called up, I see the last line as a immortality phrase. "Heshang Gong states that all things are self-originating within the void which exists between heaven and earth. There is 'one gentle energy flowing throughout'. If we can likewise preserve a quiet within, we are one with heaven and earth - and a spiritual light is born. 'The inner light will command him'. The pure energy moves on unobstructed - like the opening and closing of a pair of bellows." - Bertschinger Translation and notes

I am already talking with 齐天大圣, so no need. Iet's get back to something to discuss on chapter 5.