dawei

MB: You might find this an interesting read. http://worldreligionsjourney.com/taoism/lao_tzu_on_changes.pdf P.S. I don't expect you to respond to the paper

Look up Breatharian. Energy is not from food alone... If one is getting their energy only during practice then they are restricting their access (at least in intention) to that time. Each breath is 'practice' in the sense of acquiring energy. And each breath is from the skin, not the nose alone. Don't limit yourself from universal energy.

I agree with your premise but would add that the extent of our idea on 'integrating with the whole' is also going to either impose a limit or provide limitlessness. Meaning: If all you accept/believe/operate on is a physical level of understanding then that is all it will be limited to. But if you operate under the assumption that physical-energetic-spiritual are all equally a part of the whole then there is no limit. But I would say that your idea is very good as it would encourage the limited to move beyond their limits. Nice post.

No I didn't expect any comment to the quotes... only an acknowledgement of the possibility that not all stories are just stories... too many references and so little space to soften our incredulity... But you know I may hammer away at the philosophy-is-enough aspect at times. Glad your sporting enough to put up with it as I am to put up with it

The Spiritual Legacy of Shaolin Temple Buddhims, Daoism, and the Energetic Arts Andy James Foreward by Jerrry Alan Johnson Amazon.com: http://www.amazon.co... Shaolin Temple $1.65 - used

If anyone knows someone with heart issues... I would highly recommend this: http://www.forresthealth.com/cardionorma.html See Ingredients and Use. I am not suggesting that this is a substitute for professional treatment but if you have this by their side you may likely avert serious damage to the heart when an onset occurs.

Let's be a better student of history than to write it all off as simply mythology: “In the beginning there was as yet no moral or social order. Men knew their mothers only, not their fathers. When hungry, they searched for food; when satisfied, they threw away the remnants. They devoured their food hide and hair, drank the blood, and clad themselves in skins and rushes. Then came Fu Xi and looked upward and contemplated the images in the heavens, and looked downward and contemplated the occurrences on earth. He united man and wife, regulated the five stages of change, and laid down the laws of humanity. He devised the eight trigrams, in order to gain mastery over the world.” (Ban Gu, Baihu tongyi written in the first century AD). -- Legge Zhuangzi wrote: “Are you, Sir, unacquainted with the age of perfect virtue? Anciently there were Rong-cheng, Da-ting, Bo-huang, Zhong-yang, Li-lu,Li-Chu, Xian-yuan, He-xu, Zun-lu, Zhu-rong, Fu-xi, and Shen-nong. In their times the people made knots on cords in carrying on their affairs. They thought their (simple) food pleasant, and their (plain) clothing beautiful. They were happy in their (simple) manners, and felt at rest in their (poor) dwellings. (The people of) neighbouring states might be able to descry one another; the voices of their cocks and dogs might be heard (all the way) from one to the other; they might not die till they were old; and yet all their life they would have no communication together. In those times perfect good order prevailed.” -- Legge The legalist document Policies says, “In the times of Shen-nong, men ploughed to obtain food, and women wove to obtain clothing. Without the application of punishments or governmental measures, order prevailed; without the raising of mailed soldiers, he reigned supreme. After Shen-nong had died, the weak were conquered by force and the few oppressed by the many. Therefore Huang-di created the ideas of prince and minister, of superior and inferior, the rites between father and son, between elder and younger brothers, the union between husband and wife, and between consort and mate. At home, he applied sword and saw, and abroad he used mailed soldiers; this was because the times had changed. Looking at it from this point of view, Shen-nong is not higher than Huang-di, but the reason that his name was honoured was because he suited his time. “ -- Legge The so-called “Model of Shen Nong” paints a utopian picture where neither punishment nor army nor ruler nor social inequity existed: where people slept sound, awoke refreshed, knew their mothers but not their fathers and were neighbors with the deers. The Shangzi says that there was neither punishment nor administration, yet society was quite stable. Without the need for soldiers or weapons he rose to rulership. The Teng Wen Gong said: “In the time of Yao, when the world had not yet been perfectly reduced to order, the vast waters, flowing out of their channels, made a universal inundation. Vegetation was luxuriant, and birds and beasts swarmed. The various kinds of grain could not be grown. The birds and beasts pressed upon men. The paths marked by the feet of beasts and prints of birds crossed one another throughout the Middle Kingdom. To Yao alone this caused anxious sorrow. He raised Shun to office, and measures to regulate the disorder were set forth. Shun committed to Yi the direction of the fire to be employed, and Yi set fire to, and consumed, the forests and vegetation on the mountains and in the marshes, so that the birds and beasts fled away to hide themselves. Yu separated the nine streams, cleared the courses of the Ji and Ta, and led them all to the sea. He opened a vent also for the Ru and Han, and regulated the course of the Huai and Si, so that they all flowed into the Jiang. When this was done, it became possible for the people of the Middle Kingdom to cultivate the ground and get food for themselves. During that time, Yu was eight years away from his home, and though he thrice passed the door of it, he did not enter. Although he had wished to cultivate the ground, could he have done so? The Minister of Agriculture taught the people to sow and reap, cultivating the five kinds of grain. When the five kinds of grain were brought to maturity, the people all obtained a subsistence. But men possess a moral nature; and if they are well fed, warmly clad, and comfortably lodged, without being taught at the same time, they become almost like the beasts. This was a subject of anxious solicitude to the sage Shun, and he appointed Xie to be the Minister of Instruction, to teach the relations of humanity: how, between father and son, there should be affection; between sovereign and minister, righteousness; between husband and wife, attention to their separate functions; between old and young, a proper order; and between friends, fidelity. The high meritorious sovereign said to him, "Encourage them; lead them on; rectify them; straighten them; help them; give them wings - thus causing them to become possessors of themselves. Then follow this up by stimulating them, and conferring benefits on them." -- Legge Zhuang Zi, a Warring State period philosopher, describes the transition of the early times of order to the then-present disorder: 'And moreover I have heard that anciently birds and beasts were numerous, and men were few, so that they lived in nests in order to avoid the animals. In the daytime they gathered acorns and chestnuts, and in the night they roosted on the trees; and on account of this they are called the people of the Nest-builder. Anciently the people did not know the use of clothes. In summer they collected great stores of faggots, and in winter kept themselves warm by means of them; and on account of this they are called the people who knew how to take care of their lives. In the age of Shen Nong, the people lay down in simple innocence, and rose up in quiet security. They knew their mothers, but did not know their fathers. They dwelt along with the elks and deer. They ploughed and ate; they wove and made clothes; they had no idea of injuring one another: this was the grand time of Perfect virtue. Huang-Di, however, was not able to perpetuate this virtuous state. He fought with Chi-you in the wild ofZhuo-lu till the blood flowed over a hundred li. When Yao and Shun arose, they instituted their crowd of ministers. Tang banished his lord. King Wu killed Zhou. Since that time the strong have oppressed the weak, and the many tyrannised over the few. From Tang and Wu downwards, (the rulers) have all been promoters of disorder and confusion.’ -- Legge In another passage he writes: ‘This condition (of excellence) deteriorated and decayed, till Sui-ren and Fu-xi arose and commenced their administration of the world; on which came a compliance (with their methods), but the state of unity was lost. The condition going on to deteriorate and decay, Shan Nang and Huang-Di arose, and took the administration of the world, on which (the people) rested (in their methods), but did not themselves comply with them. Still the deterioration and decay continued till the lords of Tang and Yu began to administer the world. These introduced the method of governing by transformation, resorting to the stream (instead of to the spring), thus vitiating the purity and destroying the simplicity (of the nature). They left the Dao, and substituted the Good for it, and pursued the course of Haphazard Virtue. After this they forsook their nature and followed (the promptings of) their minds. One mind and another associated their knowledge, but were unable to give rest to the world. Then they added to this knowledge (external and) elegant forms, and went on to make these more and more numerous. The forms extinguished the (primal) simplicity, till the mind was drowned by their multiplicity. After this the people began to be perplexed and disordered, and had no way by which they might return to their true nature, and bring back their original condition.’ – Legge And again writes: 'There is no one whom the world exalts so much as it does Huang-Di, and still he was not able to perfect his virtue, but fought in the wilderness of Zhuo-lu, till the blood flowed over a hundred li. Yao was not kind to his son. Shun was not filial. Yu was paralysed on one side. Tang banished his sovereign. King Wu smote Zhou. King Wen was imprisoned in You-li. These are the six men of whom the world thinks the most highly, yet when we accurately consider their history, we see that for the sake of gain they all disallowed their true (nature), and did violence to its proper qualities and tendencies: their conduct cannot be thought of but with deep shame.” -- Legge

Good point And I would take it one step further and ask: What is the meaning of having a point of view? As our point of view is limited so we only see a part and not the whole when we ask such questions. Every system has some 'vulnerability', so why would anything manifest be an exception to this rule... otherwise all we are really seeking is some sort of perfection. Then we would have to ask, what is the point of having perfection? IMO, this is the cycle and trap of dualistic thought/thinking.

Thanks for the comments. I gave her English Hawthorn (and another mixture every 10 minutes), applied pressure to HT-9, and use Medical Qigong. She will keep taking the drops for about 4-5 days. In the past, when this happened in china, she would spend 6-8 weeks recovering after 3 days in the hospital. This was the second episode in 6 months here, but now it only takes her a week to get back to full strength. But the next day she is up cooking and doing house work.

I came home from a 9 day business trip and my wife's mom (a retired chinese TCM doctor) was grabbing her heart... then beating it with her fist as she walked around the living room. She had already had 3 operations on her heart and was told she would never survive another... We had brought her to Orlando, FL so she could come get out of the northeast cold climate of china... but here she was in Orlando with a heart crisis in the middle of the night... She said this was the worse ever and proclaimed this was the one to kill her and she accepted this but fought it with her fist... What do you do? (this was last night and I'll save what I did until I get a response).

Realize if you ask questions here you'll get all sorts of answers. Your are correct in your comment of general location of: 1. Third eye 2. Heart 3. Lower Dan tian Each one has 9 chambers but one does not need to completely realize that to breath through them. Realize what each one connects you to... Jing, Qi, Shen. I would recommend you do bottom to top but there is a solar plexus breath which is a very useful stop. There is a practice to integrate those three (heart, solar plexus, LDT) before going to Shen... The only problem I have found is with the UDT breathing. It can get dense and heavy and then I walk the Qi over the head to relieve some feeling... but my Qigong master says I am "too open" and need to close it. Who is there to tell you as such?

Religion is as Religion does... Spirituality is as Spirituality does... Everyone posts as everyone does/believes/thinks/wants/desires/etc. Aaron.. bro... a great thread by count... but who is really to judge such things unless they have inwardly consumed both sides? At one time I would say the same thing (when I consumed religion alone)... it was not that I consumed spirituality that changed my mind but that I saw both [all] are a part of a whole outside of manifest... If you only want to pair them off as combatants then we are stuck in manifest dualism... VMarco has a lot to say which should be considered more seriously...

I don't view man as separate from nature; nor simply one of four entities. This makes it a bit arbitrary to the reading as if reading a story alone. Man is a microcosm of the universe; Heaven and Earth are a microcosm for polar energies (Yin and Yang). Everything in the manifest world is but a transformation of the unmanifest through the process of Dao. if one views these issues more from a transformation point of view then they are like saying there are many animals but they are all animals. They manifest differently in shape, ability, habitat, etc. From a micro point of view, we can dissect some issues and talk about man specifically but I don't think the macro point of view is they are separate. As to "Straw Dogs": The Xiang'er manuscript reveals that this originates with the Yellow emperor (Huang Di) and was nothing to do with ritual / burial issues... only later did some change it's meaning and use to that. Bokenhamp deals with this in his translation in Early Daoist Scriptures.

I accept the claims but not simply because he says so but because it is consistent with study I have done under two different Qigong Masters. I find very little difference in the core message, which has much less to do with intellectualizing and rationalizing an understanding of life or requiring answers to how life appears unjust and how do we make sense of that. If our perspective is simply on the physical level then there will be something missing from the picture in terms of an understanding and an answer. In which case how can one accept an answer for which their constructed view does not include that missing part? One may say over and over they are keeping an open mind, if even to realize or accept something missing, but it is not just a mental block issue; it is an issue deep within which is our connection to that which is unseen and beyond the senses. Just how does one listen and accept such things? (rhetorical). So we can make such observations as the world is dog eat dog, etc and ask why is it this way... but what have you really solved after all is said and done? (semi-rhetorical). Maybe one comes to a point of simply accepting it or not. But simply accepting it, IMO, is to still sit outside of it as if we're going along with it all but we're separated; are we simply accepting ourselves too in this? (more rhetorical). What is the final goal? Self-discovery of some sort? (my final rhetorical). From FH: Yes, this does seem to be another level all together and is the level which I think most will simply find not just hard to accomplish but hard to be convinced it is even a need or a reality. I do think each person's path is their own and the road will go where it will. Some may end up at the same location at times and some paths are shorter and others are longer. But this is not to compare but only to say the path is their own. Sometimes I think the path of self-discovery is no discovery at all... which of course may be a discovery in our minds alone. I once had an experience as this chapter 16 shares where I was lost in a kind of empty, gaze and lost all sense of distinctions and literally observed all things coming and going. And what we often describe as man's destructive actions against nature (or earth) was simply a part of the 10,000 arising and falling. I then came back to the micro view of life.

Can you share more about this? I recently suspected that some of what I have been experiencing in the last year is a nervous system issue. I have at times gotten it under control using Qigong breathing and meditation. I would admit that I probably learned and practiced too much too fast at a higher level of energy than I could accept at the time but didn't realize that till later.

I will suggest a different direction: Not to emulate the way of heaven as that is a part of our outer senses to make sense of our world through the chinese model of correspondence of the microcosm and macrocosm: If you see that cycle in the heavens that cycle must exist in the earth. For a long time I followed this idea and pursued a lot of study in it, but now I see it differently. Don't emulate the way of heaven. Emulate the way of Zi-Ran. That allows oneself to be who and what they are. The heavens are the heavens. The earth is the earth. Man is man. Yourself is yourself. Don't make judgments I am coming to a conclusion that any teaching, practice, or work effort which has a goal to achieve something is itself a deception on some level. While I do believe one can experience something more, I think one has to ask themself: Exactly how is this helping humanity? If this is only helping yourself then ok... go off and do it but realize your only really caring about yourself. And if it is about yourself then understand this is about SELF. What is it you want to achieve? Be serious with yourself. But ask yourself: What are you giving to humanity? If nothing then maybe why post so much about self? If you believe it is something else then why post here instead of simply being busy giving to humanity? These are rhetorical questions for those who need the explanation....

I guess I was not logged in at the time I posted the above and I was assigned as a guest... if a mod wants to clean up the name on the above post, feel free.

Looking back over this chapter and the discussion on rising and falling, I have also seen my thoughts rise and fall... It seems to me that only 'things' rise and fall; that which is eternal does not ; that is to say there is no beginning and no end. So it would seem to be a particular predicament of the 'things' stage [of eternity] to experience or observe this rising and falling (or returning of one prefers that); it is the nature of the manifest world and not really some kind of nature of dao. I also see the open more clearly: Emptiness = of 'things'; thus 'things' are potential. Stillness = of 'movement'; thus 'arising/falling' is kinetic. The result is the manifest world which is absent of the emptiness and stillness in which dao may be said to reside (although I don't quite like to word it that way, it comes close to conveying what I mean). So returning may not be so much a cyclic return but rather simply 'restoring destiny' (Xiang'er text); a state of emptiness and stillness. Our minds comprehend this as a cycle because we see cyclic like behavior in nature. "Heaven and earth were born at the same time I was, and the ten thousand things are one with me"-Zhuang Zi (Tr. Bruce Watson)

I have been waiting for the right moment for this question... and would like to get back to the five themes and how Dao Xin relates to them. Thanks Jeff.

There is so much here worth discussing and I appreciate your comments. What I personally ponder is how much we need to make excuses for our human existence... It seems among the ten thousand, the human is elevated as highest in the food chain; yet they are the only ones among the ten thousand which needs to 'cultivate'... they are the only one's who have 'lost' some original connection or need to re-connect or re-establish... this would seem to put them at the bottom, IMO. When one brings in the idea that it is humans who are destroying this earth with a single-hand, we simply are not capable on some level. Humans are a destroying virus (as one famous movie said). Your comments on Dao Xin which I studied in Medical Qigong which I think is one of the highest discussions one should have... but the average person won't care about this. Only those who have a destiny to this will.

Can you expound on this? I can see the end/start of a cycle (or recycle) with your comments; the new born babe is the result and product at one end of a cycle and then a new cycle starts (of life and it's impurities). A new born is the picture of wu wei prior to any intellectual understanding... it is one with it (if I may say it this way)... ergo, why all the intellectual understanding [pomp and circumstance in discussions] for something we once had without question? It seems to me the more we question and debate and define it the more we simply admit (unconsciously perhaps) we are from it's original unity?

This was exactly how I wanted to comment... Balance is really BALANCING... Leveling... If we hold as our base the idea of the 'transformation of states' then we are always in the act of some change. I also like to use the idea of the 'sum of the forces'; an earthquake is responding to the sum of the forces deep within the earth and in order to balance the larger system (of forces), it gives way and then we get over the shock... 'Becoming' is an interesting topic even among buddhism and existentialism...

Ah.... the manifestations of dualism... and their trappings... best to steer clear of too much distinction and pronouncement of their meaning. What is Yin to one is Yang to another. You only need to feel what is your way. I like Flowing Hands, chapter 2, transmission: CHAPTER 2 All under Heaven can see beauty, because ugliness exists. One knows good only because there is evil. These two manifest from the same source which complement each other. From the myriad forms, each has a complement: Difficult and easy complement each other. Long and short contrast each other. Voice and sound are in harmony with each other. Front and back follow one another. The Sage sees the Ten Thousand Things in harmony, and goes about his business doing nothing, so the Ten Thousand Things rise and fall without interference. Bearing, yet not possessing, working, yet not taking credit, work is done, then forgotten, therefore it remains eternal.

What you say makes sense, so I find the explanation clear enough. I would say that your Mystery (potential) is possibly the same that the Huainanzi said in it's cosmology as Tai Zhai (which I translate as a primal Illumination--think big bang). I usually consider the 'three' as Yin-Qi, Yang-Qi and the whole they come from... the bang--primal Illumination. For that reason I also think of this as the forerunner (think previous stage or state or transformation) to what we know as Qi.

I am glad this steered back on course. If someone wants to question FH's background they can use one of the other existing threads which is meant for that. This issue of the female ending up in subatomic particle discussion is interesting on some level and let's see where it goes but if someone feels this is worthy of a deeper discussion into the 'science of the DDJ' maybe that would be interesting too.