dawei

You are right to ask questions concerning the text as it does lend itself to various interpretations. You can also see here for various translations: http://home.pages.at/onkellotus/TTK/_IndexTTK.html Many translate according to a philosophical position and focus on word-by-word understanding while others may bring in higher understanding or insight based on maybe alchemy, shaman or spiritual practices. Flowing Hand's transmission represents the latter. We covered all the DDJ chapters one by one but your welcome to visit them and raise questions.

Just think Yin and Yang if Female and Male throws you off... but it is just a word exchange in the end.

I see the order a little differently... with Dao as the overall generative, transforming, unfolding process: The transforming process of Dao: {nothing} > (non-dif + potential) > *bang!* > (polarity + non-dif + potential) > (10,000 things + polarity + non-dif + potential) >

IT IS Chapter 52... if your not seeing it, then stick around... and save your diatribe for another. You can stick to the posts if you want... if you run off and check it against another's translation then that is YOUR doing... you are certainly free and encouraged to do so... but at least understand the entire situation before you talk about townie ideas... I am not sure what you want to prove with such talk but maybe listen more and talk less.

I did not say you took personal offense... either you did not really read all the exchange before wanting to post something or I have forgotten a comma somewhere... In either case, it doesn't matter... back to the thread...

yes, maybe... so I am glad my initial gut was not explore it too far...

Not sure who is supposedly ticked off... sad that conversations can't come and go; ebb and flow; let them run their course and die their own death without interference... Of course a better idea is to just stick to the topic... But waiting three days sounds like a whole lot of silliness to me; if it can't come and go in a moment then it is pent up and maybe online is not the place to be... but it is cheaper than therapy.

I was going to try and tie them back as the first aspect of matter and non-matter but decided not to go there... but you got me thinking in that direction again. Thanks.

The Flowing Hands Translation is a transmission he received. You can search other threads with his name to get some background. While you can look at the chinese characters or another translation to get some gist of the written characters, the transmission is the chapter message which was conveyed.

Yes. Thanks. But to try and stay to your topic... I see the two [unboundaried] states as ebb and flow. While a comma is important, it is important for the reading but it is interesting to note that classical chinese did not use a comma and that is how our variations in translation occur. But, IMO, LZ walked in Wu (comma-less) but had to write in You (commas). When he put the book down, he could get back to the life of comma-less living in a world of commas.

To me, they represent that which the manifest is not [yet]; The state of Wu transforming.

Getting back to the OP... the Dictionary of Frequently Used Classical Chinese Characters Pulleyblank's Outline of Classical Chinese Classical Chinese Primer A Concise Grammar of Classical Chinese http://www.invisiblebooks.com/CGCC.htm

So how is my saying the thread is about Wang's idea an opinion? That was what I pointed out. Seems factual to me. Not sure where personal offense is taken from that. You make a lot of good points but as you like to stir the pot a bit, I am surprised it has not taken internally in application. But nice observations nonetheless.

Is that a third opinion? I hope you see the difference between factual comments and fabricated emotional smoke and mirrors...and those who simply toss nothing into the pile for no reason...

stepping aside... reel it in...

Excuses... just post if you want... no more excuses and sad eyes... therapy is more expensive than the time you spend typing here... Just be real and be honest and be yourself... Nobody wants anything more from you... this is a welcome )

There was nothing to poke.... your original OP was Wang's ideas... I didn't want a response to be to "Rene"... the thread is about is about Wang's idea... CD has decided not to respond because he has no response to Wang... another chinese man... He took it personal while nobody else has... It is just a thread and discussion... talk or not talk... it is that easy in Wu Wei....

Please be accurate in response... This is in response to : Wayne L. Wang* (Department of Nuclear Engineering, Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge, Massachusetts 02139) and C. M. Shakin (Department of Physics, Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio 44106) You may want to read more before posting... http://www.dynamictao.com/author_dynamictao.html

Flowing Hands... can you speak to the Female Shaman, Wu ?

I want to say this is an incredible transmission...

Personifications are for personal effect... and affect... if you get it, then you needed it... otherwise, you already got it... and didn't need it... and didn't need to post anything anyways.... Let's keep going without interruption...

To be fair to Goldstein, whoever he is, he may be simply keeping the comment to his ideas on meditation.... but his quote only talks of the path, not the outcome... which can be the difference to the seeker's result. Your persistence in the 'unboundaried' and 'both', now a compound, is a message I often state too... I would only state that this is a higher level at some point but we are stuck on dualism as non-duality... It is wordsmithing a philosophy; but if we are going to wordsmith something, this is it ! I would offer that the levels are physical; then meta-physical; then energetic; then spiritual; then divine... Most of our discussions here remain on the lowest, most base level... this at least offers a second level taste as it is more meta-physical reality...

Your posting only for your own personal need and benefit... you've said in multiple threads as such and continue as you wont. No need to give reasons or excuses. We should all be aware of our way without excuse... It is the excuses which are unbecoming... and 'you wei'... not the first mis-usage... let's at least be honest while we are at this game...

I understand your point and see it on one level... but IMO, Lao Zi cared... and cared enough to say what people should do... I think you are actually doing/saying things the same way; there is an internal indifference as to personal benefit but an outward care about the 10,000... But I would agree that ultimately I also will not care if others accept something or not; that is their way.

Can't say I recall this but worth some commments: I do think parts are for the ruler in metaphor-talk but much is for people. But we should recall that the Confucians considered the 'ancient kings' as Sage-Kings so there may of been some prevailing feelings that a sage is meant to advise the King for how else did you get sagely himself? All this non-competing and non-betterment is multi-dimensional in [theoretical] outcome: Mankind - happy Family - harmony State - honorable IMO, your completely on the right track... the text as a whole contains themes and support for a point should be found in many chapters. But I have said it before and I'll say it again... if one thinks they will understand Dao from the DDJ alone, it is like saying that one will understand God from the bible alone... The DDJ text was never meant to be that ambitious and we do well to know the history, culture, and philosophy before and after the Warring State period... but this is just book knowledge. As others have said, to really 'know' is to go beyond the physical, natural senses. This has many paths but it will require putting all books down as a start...