dawei

ok, I will admit you helped me to see numinous mind idea. I'm just not of the mind that Xin focuses on the mind. Problem may be that this is my mind talking. I may be forcing the issue with the old practices of spirits within... but just feels like the meaning on some level.

I think that does make more sense.... of the senses...

I think it is implied, though not specified.

I've started 3 replies... and just going to not go there.

Forgot to share this line from Yellow Emperors Classic of Medicine: 心藏神，肺藏魄，肝藏魂，脾藏意，腎藏志，是謂五藏所藏 [the] heart stores [the] spirit...

ok, no bites yet... so I'll nibble Roth feels to force the Shen to mean mind.. and Linnel's 'understanding' seems off mark. But this section feeds into the next, where I said (in the latter) that the 'heart within the heart' is likely spirit. I don't like Eno's 'spontaneous' so I'll go with Shazi Daoren The Spirit(s) naturally abides in the body,

I'll give Roth some credit... ordered sounds much better. Regulate sounds like a mechanical action.

My gut feeling is that the heart within a heart is hidden spirit sense. Here is his second justification to use Tone instead of Intention and I tend to agree again. My feeling is that because XIN is so dominant in the text, folks want to fit words to it (ie: change tone to intent). I don't exactly like his second to last line... just say follow the parallel structure with: Confusion is followed by disorder... and maybe finish with same... Death is followed by Confusion. I'm not sure it reads so well that way but it is more poetic in form.

I have come to really appreciate your brevity and accuracy in translation

There is no consideration of a ban at all. 3Bob is a valued member. The staff has a life and it takes time to review issues. I had put in place some attempts to review stuff faster but I can't force staff to get online. Off-Grid has caused discussion at the staff level and caused us to watch certain members. My hope was folks would just act rationally and respectfully in an area you can 'let loose' a little bit. I don't really like to just shove topics into Hundun to have them continue there. I plan to stop that thread at some point and we do a reset on a topic in O-G, if someone want.

Section 6: The Inner Grasp Eno If the form is not balanced, the force of virtue will not come. If the center is not tranquil, the heart will not be regulated. When a balanced form controls the force of virtue then the ren of heaven and the righteousness of earth will come spontaneously as a torrent. The polar limit of spirit-like brilliance shines in the understanding. The central rightness of the world of things is flawlessly preserved. Not letting things disrupt the senses; not letting the senses disrupt the heart – such is called inner grasping. Linnell 形 不 正 If the form [of the heart/mind] is not properly aligned, 德 不 來 De will not arrive. 中 不 靜 If the center is not still, 心 不 治 The heart/mind will not be regulated. 正 形 攝 德 When the properly aligned form takes in De, 天 仁 地 義 The kindness of heaven and the righteousness of earth 則 淫 然 而 自 至 Then naturally arrive, and overwhelmingly. 神 明 之 極 This highest of spirit-like understanding 照 乎 Is it illuminating? 知 萬 物 You will understand the ten thousand creatures. 中 義 守 不 忒 Maintain the righteousness of the center, and you will not err : 不 以 物 亂 官 Do not allow creatures to confuse your senses, 不 以 官 亂 心 Do not allow the senses to confuse your heart/mind. 是 謂 中 得 This is called attaining the center. Roth -- Section 11 -- 1. When your body is not aligned, 2. The inner power will not come. 3. When you are not tranquil within, 4. Your mind will not be ordered. 5. Align your body, assist the inner power, 6. Then it will gradually come on its own. -- Section 12 -- 1. The numinous [mind]: no one knows its limit; 2. It intuitively knows the myriad things. 3. Hold it within you, do not let it waver. 4. To not disrupt your senses with external things, 5. To not disrupt your mind with your senses: 6. This is called "grasping it within you." Shazi Daoren -- Section 11 -- When the body is not aligned, De will not thrive. When the center is not calm, the Heart will not be harnessed. Align the body, collect De. Leave to heaven benevolence and to earth justice-- these will naturally thrive on their own. -- Section 12 -- The Spirit comprehends the Ultimate; Manifest! It understands the myriad things. Hold it within your bosom, do not waver. Do not let external things confuse your faculties; do not let your faculties confuse your Heart. This is called 'attaining the center.' Yueya: -- Section 11 -- When your body is not aligned, The inner power will not arrive. When the centre lacks stillness, The heart-mind will not be well-ordered. Align your body and assist inner power— Then it will gradually arrive on its own. -- Section 12 -- The numinous [heart-mind], no one knows its limits; Its luminosity extends to know the ten thousand things. Guard it at the centre and do not let it waver. Do not disturb your senses with external things. Do not disturb your heart-mind with the senses. This is called “attaining the Centre.” Reid 122形不正, When the bodily form is not aligned, 123 德不來。 Virtue does not approach; 124 中不靜, When the center is not tranquil, 125 心不治。 The heart-mind is not orderly. 126 正形攝德, When the bodily form is aligned, it absorbs Virtue. 127 天仁地義, Heaven’s benevolent generosity and Earth’s balancing righteousness 128 則淫然而自至。 Then naturally arrive in abundance. 129 神明之 極, The ultimate spiritual intelligence – 130 照乎知萬物, Luminous! It understands the myriad things 131 中義守不忒。 When, in the center, righteousness is guarded without err, 132 不以物亂官, And things do not disturb the senses, 133 不以官亂心, Nor do the senses disturb the heart, 134 是謂中得。 This is called inner attainment.

Previously I said I would put the chinese in a spoiler but seems too difficult when it is attached to linnell's text. I began this by following Roth's sections (26) but find it feeling short so changed this now to follow Eno's sections (18). The section names are from Eno. Some additions to the below texts are inserted to clarify a word use. Example: Essence [Jing]. This is done for Jing, Qi, and De if the author did not use the pinyin. See ctext.org for alternate chinese text to Linnell (https://ctext.org/guanzi/nei-ye) Notes: 凡 - Always. See Ctext as this is used throughout the text but many don't translate it 精 - Jing. Later explained as above Qi 物 - Wu. things. matter. If one knows Wan Wu, is the ten thousand things. 為 - Wei. Do. Some may know this in compound with Wu Wei. 下 - Xia. Below reference to earth 生 - Sheng. Born, beget, product. Look at LZ 42 (Dao Produced the One--Chan). 上 - Xia. Above, reference to heaven 天 地 之 間 - Gate/passage of heaven and earth 鬼 神 - ghosts & spirits 中 - Center, inner, central, inside, innermost 聖 人 -Sages 氣 - Qi 天 - Heaven / Sky 德 - De 安 - calm, peace 意 - intent 智 - wisdom Section 1: The Essential Qi Eno: It is the essence [Jing] of things that gives life to them. Below, it gives birth to the five grains; above, it is the ranks of stars. Flowing between heaven and earth: we call these ghosts and spirits. Stored within the breast: we call these sages. This qi is So bright! As though climbing to heaven. So dark! As though entering the abyss. So broad! As though permeating the sea. So compact! As though residing within oneself. This qi Cannot be detained through physical force, but may be brought to rest by force of virtue [De]. It may not be summoned by means of sound, but may be received through one’s thoughts. To guard it alertly without fail, this is called perfect virtue [De]. When virtue [De] is perfected wisdom emerges and all the things of the world are grasped. Linnell: 凡 物 之 精 Always : the essence [Jing] of creatures – 此 則 為 生 This then makes them live. 下 生 五 穀 Below, it gives birth to the five grains; 上 為 列 星 Above, it acts to arrange the stars. 流 於 天 地 之 間 When it flows in the space between heaven and earth 謂 之 鬼 神 We call them ghosts and spirits. 藏 於 胸 中 When it collects in the center of the breast of people, 謂 之 聖 人 We call them sages. 是 故 民 氣 Thus the Qi of the citizens :杲 乎 Is it bright?如 登 於 天 As though ascending to heaven.杳 乎 Is it dark and quiet?如 入 於 淵 As though entering into an abyss.綽 乎 Is it wide and spacious?如 在 於 海 As though residing in the ocean.卒 乎 Is it close?如 在 於 己 As though residing in oneself. 是 故 此 氣 也 Thus this Qi –不 可 止 以 力 Can not be brought to rest by using force,而 可 安 以 德 But can be calmed by using De.不 可 呼 以 聲 Can not be summoned by using your voice,而 可 迎 以 意 But can be made welcome by using your intent.敬 守 勿 失 When you can respectfully maintain it, and never lose it,是 謂 成 德 This is called developed De.德 成 而 智 出 When De develops, and wisdom* arises,萬 物 果 得 The bounty of the ten thousand creatures is attained. Roth: 1. The vital essence [Jing] of all things: 2. It is this that brings them to life. 3. It generates the five grains below 4. And becomes the constellated stars above. 5. When flowing amid the heavens and the earth 6. We call it ghostly and numinous. 7. When stored within the chests of human beings, 8. We call them sages. -- Section 2 -- 1. Therefore this vital energy [Qi] is:2. Bright! – as if ascending from the heavens;3. Dark! – as if entering an abyss;4. Vast! – as if dwelling in an ocean;5. Lofty! – as if dwelling on a mountain peak.6. Therefore this vital energy [Qi]7. Cannot be halted by force,8. Yet can be secured by inner power [Te].9. Cannot be summoned by speech,10. Yet can be welcomed by awareness.11. Reverently hold onto it and do not lose it:12. This is called "developing inner power." [De]13. When inner power [De] develops and wisdom emerges,14. The myriad things will, to the last one, be grasped. Shazi Daoren: The Essence [Jing] of all things, thru transformation creates life. Below, it brings to life the five grains, above, it aligns the stars. When flowing among the heaven and earth, we call this the 'spiritual being'. When stored up in the center of the bosom, we call this the Sage. -- Section 2 -- Therefore, regarding 'Energy' [Qi], it is:Bright! As if ascending the sky;Dark! As if entering into the abyss;Disperse! As if existing in the ocean;Present! As if existing in the self. Therefore this Energy [Qi]:cannot be stopped by force,yet can be pacified by Virtue [De],cannot be spoken by voice,yet can be embraced by the mind.Reverently nurture it and do not let it go:this is called 'developing Virtue' [De].When Virtue [De] develops and wisdom emerges,the myriad things will all be attained. Yueya: The vital essence [Jing] of all things, It is this that brings them to life. It generates the five grains below; It becomes the arrayed stars above. When flowing amid the heavens and earth, We call it ghostly and numinous. When stored within the chests of humans, We call such beings sages. -- Section 2 -- Thus we may describe this qi —Bright! — as if ascending to the heavens;Dark! — as if entering an abyss;Vast! — as if dwelling in an ocean;Lofty! — as if residing on a mountain peak. Therefore this qi—Cannot be controlled by force,Yet can be stabilized through inner power (de).Cannot be summoned by speech，Yet can be welcomed through awareness.Reverently guard it and do not lose it:This is called “developing inner power.” [De]When inner power [De] develops and wisdom emerges,The bounty of ten thousand things will be realized. Reid: 1 凡物之精, It is invariably the essence of things 2 此則為生。 That gives them life 3 下生五穀, Below, it gives birth to the five grains; 4 上為列星。 Above, it aligns the stars. 5 流於天地之間, Circulating between Heaven and Earth, 6 謂之鬼神。 We call it ghosts and spirits; 7 藏於胸中, Collected within the bosom, 8 謂之聖人。 We call them sages 9 是故民氣, As a result (of essence), the energy-breath of common people (becomes) {1} 10 杲乎如登於天。 Bright! As though rising up to the Heavens; 11 杳乎如入於淵。 Dark! As though entering the depths; 12 淖乎如在於海, Spacious! As though within an ocean; 13 卒乎如在於己。 Enclosed! As though entirely self-contained. 14 是故此氣也, As a result, this energy-breath 15 不可止以力, Cannot be stopped with effort, 16 而可安以德。 Yet can be made peaceful through virtue; 17 不可呼以聲, Cannot be called over with a shout, 18 而可迎以音。 Yet can be welcomed with a harmonious tone (intention).{2} 19 敬守勿失, Honour it and guard it within. Do not neglect it. 20 是謂成德。 This is called ripening virtue.{3} 21 德成而智出, When virtue has ripened, wisdom comes forth, 22 萬物果得。 And the myriad things attain fruition. {1} The word min, 民 “the people,” is usually suppressed in translations of this line as it appears to read “the qi of the common people is: bright!..” By reading 是故 with its literal meaning of “as a result” rather than simply “therefore,” the following lines appear to describe a transformation of the people’s qi. The conclusion of this passage, “When virtue has ripened, wisdom comes forth, and the myriad things attain fruition,” appears to support such a reading. Further statements such as “when the people attain it, they become fruitful” also suggest an interest in a transformation of “the common people.” {2} “音 Tone” is generally replaced here with yi, “意 intention.” I have retained the received wording, where “tone” contrasts with “noise; shout.” The Nei Ye later states that “to dispel sadness, nothing compares to music,” and the Xin Shu Xia states that “to moderate anger, nothing compares to music.” In “The Ten Faults” chapter of the Hanfei Zi (another important Legalist text), great weight is put on the importance of a ruler listening only to consonant music, stating that only rulers with a highly developed virtue can listen to melancholic and dissonant modes without falling into misfortune. “Healing sound qigong” uses vocal sounds to heal the internal organs, though its date of origin is uncertain. There is, therefore, reason to believe that 音 yin was intentional, if not just to contrast tranquility (harmonious tone ) with anger (shouting). See also, Nei Ye line 167. {3} The term “virtue” in lines 16, 20, and 21, may carry overtones of its synonym “attainment,” as explained in Xin Shu Shang line 116.

This line always struck me a little odd.. and Reid has a good argument to leave the original character (tone) and not replace it. But here is Roth's comment:

Just after this note is: I swear I've seen the list of aligning the five systems somewhere... if anyone knows it, please share.

This 'cloud-like Qi' seems a very unusual phrase. I can't find an example of it outside of a nature point of view (clouds).

thank you for coming back to this... this is what I can agree with

Section 5: The One Eno If the form of the heart acquires excessive knowledge, life is lost. Unifying with things and able to transform them – this is called spirit-like. Unifying with affairs and able to adapt – this is called wisdom. To transform without altering one’s qi, and adapt without altering one’s wisdom – only a junzi who grips the One can do this. Gripping the One without fail, he is able to be ruler to the world of things. The junzi manipulates things; he is not manipulated by things. He grasps the principle of the One, a regulated heart at his center, regulated words come forth from his mouth, he engages others in regulated affairs, and thus the world is regulated. In one phrase he grasps it and the world submits; in one phrase he sets it and the world obeys – this is called impartiality. Linnell: 凡 心 之 形 Always : if the form of the heart/mind 過 知 失 生 Has too much understanding, life is lost. 一 物 能 化 Knowing the Oneness with creatures can transform them, 謂 之 神 We call this being spirit-like 一 事 能 變 Knowing the Oneness with your duties can change them, 謂 之 智 We call this being wise. 化 不 易 氣 To transform creatures, without altering your Qi; 變 不 易 智 To change duties, without altering your wisdom; 惟 執 一 之 君 子 Only a noble man who maintains Oneness 能 為 此 乎 Can do this! 執 一 不 失 When he maintains Oneness and does not lose it, 能 君 萬 物 He can rule the ten thousand creatures. 君 子 使 物 A noble man uses creatures, 不 為 物 使 He does not allow creatures to use him. 得 一 之 理 When he attains the regulation of Oneness : 治 心 在 於 中 A regulated heart/mind resides in his center, 治 言 出 於 口 Regulated speech comes from his mouth, 治 事 加 於 人 Regulated duties are assigned to people. 然 則 天 下 治 矣 Then, the world is regulated! 一 言 得 而 天 下 服 One word is attained by him, and the world obeys him; 一 言 定 而 天 下 聽 One word settles him, and the world listens to him. 公 之 謂 也 We call him fair and just! Roth -- Section 8 -- 12. Whenever the forms of the mind have excessive knowledge, 13. You loose your vitality. -- Section 9 -- 1. Those who can transform even a single thing, call them "numinous"; 2. Those who can alter even a single situation, call them "wise." 3. But to transfrom without expending vital energy; to alter without expending wisdom: 4. Only exemplary persons who hold fast to the One are able to do this. 5. Hold fast to the One; do not loose it, 6. And you will be able to master the myriad things. 7. Exemplary persons act upon things, 8. And are not acted upon by them, 9. Because they g rasp the guiding principle of the One. -- Section 10 -- 1. With a well-ordered mind within you, 2. Well-ordered words issue forth from your mouth, 3. And well-ordered tasks are imposed on others. 4. Then all under heaven will be well-ordered. 5. "When one word is grasped, 6. All under the heavens will submit. 7. When one word is fixed, 8. All under heavens will listen." 9. It is this [word "Way"] to which the saying refers. Shazi Daoren -- Section 8 -- All forms of the Heart, crossing over to knowledge lose life. -- Section 9 -- Those able to transform One thing are called 'Spiritual'; those able to change One affair are called 'wise'. To transform without expending Energy, to change without expending wisdom, by grasping the One only the Master is able to do this! Grasp the One, do not loose it, and you will be able to master the myriad things. The Master acts upon things, and is not acted upon by things. Attain to the guiding principle of the One. -- Section 10 -- Harness the Heart within your bosom, control the words issuing forth from your mouth, manage affairs in concert with others, then it follows, the world will be governed. "One word is attained, and the world submits" So goes the saying. Yueya -— Section 8 -— Considering the forms of the heart-mind, Excessive knowing dissipates vitality. -- Section 9 -- Those who can transform even a single being— We call them “numinous.” Those who can alter even a single situation — We call them “wise.” To transform without expending qi, To alter without expending wisdom, Only extraordinary persons who adhere to the One can do this. Adhere to the One without losing it And you will be able to master the myriad types of beings. Extraordinary persons act upon beings, But are not acted upon by them. This is the principle of attaining the One. -- Section 10 -- With a well-ordered heart-mind within you. Well-ordered words issue from your mouth. And well-ordered tasks are presented to others. Then all under the heavens will be well-ordered. When the whole meaning is realized, Then all under the heavens will be covered. When the whole meaning is stabilized, Then all under the heavens will be heard. This is that to which we are referring. Reid: 103 凡心之形, Invariably, mental formulations {14} 104 過知失生。 Will supersede knowledge even at the expense of one’s life. 105 一物能化, 謂之神; With Oneness, things can be transformed. We call this spirit. 106 一事能變, 謂之智。 With Oneness, situations can be changed. We call this wisdom. 107 化不易氣, Transforming (things) without altering breath, 108 變不易智, Changing (situations) without altering wisdom: 109 惟執一之君子能為此乎。 Only the junzi who maintains Oneness can do this. 110 執一不失, Holding Oneness and not losing it 111 能君萬物。 They can preside over the myriad things. 112 君子使物, The junzi then conducts things, 113 不為物使, And is not conducted by things, 114 得一之理。 (Having) attained the principle of Oneness. {15} 115 治心在於中, When the orderliness of the heart-mind reaches to the very center, 116 治言出於口, Orderly words leave the mouth 117 治事加於人, And orderly affairs increase amongst the people. 118 然則天下治矣。 As such, all under Heaven will be orderly! 119 一言得而天下服, When one word is grasped, all under heaven fits together; 120 一言定而天下聽, When one word settles (in the heart), all under Heaven cooperates. 121 公之謂也。 This is the meaning of ‘serving the greater good.’ {16} {14} See footnote for line 23 of the Nei Ye {15} See the excerpt from Guigu Zi, in the Introduction, for further elucidation of lines 91-114 {16} NY lines 105-121 are compared above with XSX, lines 43-64. As noted in my commentary on these lines in XSX, “one word” refers to Dao. It may also imply minimizing instructions on Confucian virtues, and instead simply following Dao.

That should be read 'Jing of Qi'... or as some translate, 'Essence of Qi'. Why the text seems to put Jing higher than Qi (along with other sections).

Ah.. that was my feeling and point... I had found that document in the past in my research of Shamanism... glad to see it again. Except... a spirit was associated to each organ acting through the body. That is not muted.

Do I have to read all 6 pages to get the correct answer ?

You remind me of my son... his mental paradigm of the world is also his emotional paradigm he wears on his heart and sleeve. One can be an great observer of life but it doesn't mean the criticisms [we sees] are what defines who we are. I see all the same criticisms but they are never personal or emotional; I am not internally nor externally moved or affected. Even just take your comment on the 'orange man'... he really has nothing to do with you, Taiwan, China, etc. That is a political issue not a personal one. So I don't take such stuff personally but you seem to have a lot of hate with it. So, it seems to me there are deeper issues to deal with than just, Christianity did this to me, what master can I find. I was also incredibly deep into Christianity. I had a library for research and was dead set to become a pastor... but then I began to see that the professing people seemed to not even know what they were espousing; the pastors were just feeding the cattle some grass. I became quite disillusioned with it all and walked away from it. I wandered through Existentialism... ok, not my cup of tea but the existential poets made a lasting sense on me... Buddhism and that seemed to make a little sense but not enough. Found Zen and laughed for many years but realized it just kind of did a reset for me in the 'thinking puzzles'... then found Laozi. I was immediately struck with, "I have arrived". In the entire journey, I never had a personal resentment on what I observed, despite I could make lots of criticisms. Every step we take, every breath we take, every decision we take, every thought we have, has brought us to where we are today. Never resent the past nor the things you encounter and observe. Consider this: Consider even 1 second of any day of your entire life, you did something different than you actually did... wake up a second later, turn left instead of right, eat eggs instead of cereal one morning, etc... you would not be here on this forum? So... here you are Back to christian roots... I studied all the christian traditions and was delving into calvanism vs arminianism... also how methodism arose: I read John Bunyan. I had old books on Luther... and about the 'great giants who were pre-Adamites'... When I was in the military, the chaplain let me 'preach' (tell stories) in his service. We would hotly debate as he was very much about baptismal regeneration but I had a very close relationship with a strict calvinist (ie: TULIP). I was listening to John McArthur who was the darling of conservative chrisitanity... he told the story of skipping a meeting because they said it was optional but then he endured the wrath of doing so... I walked away from it all... but I remember it all... But in all of it, I was greatly moved by the christian philosopher Francis Schaeffer's words: "There is something instead of nothing". He would also say, “If you demand perfection or nothing, you will always end up with nothing.”

Wow... I had a very similar thought...that to get rid of ego is like saying to get rid of language

Agreed, it is not so much getting of ego but maybe what causes it to arise... which is a kind of paradigm of separation or "me". I think as suggested, that doesn't make the concept of "me" 100% bad as it can have a place within the dual way of life... maybe like knowing the rules of a game... but if you don't play the game, then the rules are meaningless.

Can you comment more on the 'spirits' ? Do you see this tied to other ancient practices?

Glad you brought that up as it produce some good discussion a simple definition of ego goes: a person's sense of self-esteem or self-importance. But I think it may be simpler: 'a person's sense of self' when that rears its head and creates the separation you mention, I would accept that the emerging idea of separation is a kind of illusion because it only exists in that thought. And I agree with your 'trapped' idea.