dawei

I still see it as dictated by the practice or application. I don't do RB to fill the lungs. If one were flexing their stomach they are doing R.B. but I don't see that the amount of air one draws into their lungs is a focus, other than maybe drawing in less air to quicken the state. Taking this application to intention and Qi related practices can be done. But I accept that others do some practices where R.B. and filling the lungs is more important. So getting the role of the diaphragm does seem worthwhile to explain the anatomy as I can see how it would help in visualization (intention) too.

I never said that anatomy was not involved in the discussion; I only pointed out that I was commenting on 'intention', which is a powerful practice in itself. Well, I am not trying to assert any anatomy issues. I did share that my internet research seems to show many stating the upward movement. It may be they are all wrong... which is fine. I am not adamant about it needing to be either way; only that one will do what their practice may require (or not). I acknowledged someone talking about iron shirt and their practice to 'relax' the diagraphm. So it seems to me to be partly a practice decision. I never claimed needing the lungs to be filled. If that is required as part of the practice then I can see why one wants the diaphragm to lower, regardless of the breathing direction. "Relax the diaphragm" was a word I saw used by many online... so I have no opinion about it's usage or phraseology. I see this as more practice and application related. I don't care which direct it moves until I need or require it to move a certain way or I want to manipulate it (or not). I think the topic is a good one and you have provided a lot of interesting info. The OP can drive the topic in direction as he wants, I don't have anything more to add.

No idea why that guy said it was difficult for him; one would have to ask him. I used a Google search of: "diaphragm movement with reverse breathing" pages and pages of stuff to read and research... good luck

I have mentioned twice the idea of 'intention'; that is not an anatomy issue but a Qigong issue. I will say that I just did a search to see what is being said about reverse breathing and the diaphragm and it seems rather unanimous by practitioners, whether Qi, yoga, etc, that the diaphragm tends to move up in reverse breathing. One guy mentioned that in his iron shirt practice the hardest part in reverse breathing was getting his diaphragm to relax so that it would learn to drop on the inhale. He wanted to achieve that so he could pack more energy (ie: by allowing the diaphragm to relax and drop to allow more air in on the inhale). So, I don't think it is conflicting views as much as it depends on the application/practice/intention/goal... I have not personally practiced attempting to relax the diaphragm in reverse breathing but there does appear to be good application for that. And I suspect that I did not really ask my Qigong master enough questions to see his comment on the full range of when to relax it (or not). I simply asked if the diaphragm tends to raise or lower as part of reverse breathing and he said the tendency is more to raise than it is to lower... If I explored Iron shirt questions with him, maybe he would shift to explaining how to relax the diaphragm to drop, etc... If I get interested in that I'll make sure to ask more questions next time.

It is your usage not mine. When someone, more than once, says: 'Oh... so if your going to use Taoist mystical-speak, I am done with this conversation'... 9 people out of 10 understand the meaning. Maybe your thinking everyone is the "1". If you can't understand what is being said then just stop talking; there is no reason to keep harping at members with a comment that they are following 'mystical-speak'... That is the point; to untangle it [eventually at least]. Ever think that it is the negative energy you put off? It is quite strong at times... but I know such a concept is too mystical for some to consider... so back to hiding behind philosophical shelters.

We agree on nornal breathing as you state above. Not sure where I suggested I would differ from that view but it doesn't matter as long as we agree, regardless of a word or two used to describe it. I would say that in reverse breathing, I find lots of compression going on inside the dan tian and through the middle section; all putting a slight 'upward' pressure. I think the diaphragm is acting somewhat neutral, like the lungs in such a condition but I don't sense the diaphragm is moving downward as part of it. But my intention is an 'upward' pressure so I have to account for that while someone else might not be involving that.

1. I think it depends on which youtube one looks at for deciding on terminology. It may appear as a contraction, expansion, flattening... what matters is that one knows the movement.... DOWNWARD. Put your fingers into the area and breath... and at about the time of exhale you will (should) feel it drop downward... if not, it is too tight to move in the normal movement of breath. This is for Belly breathing. 2. Let your fingers confirm it... and your body sensitivity of the diaphragm... after talking to my qigong teacher today, I am not changing my position. But I will say that in my practice, INTENTION is a hugh part... That is because he comes from a incredibly strict martial discipline of martial arts and fighting [using Qi to disable an opponent and attack organ functions]. He later used that background as part of his Medical Qigong understanding and this is probably more unique. Most folks stay within their discipline but to expand one's experience is worthwhile to consider. I cannot say if that is a part of another's practice and experience. So for that reason, what you truly experience can be different than mine.

It is evident you like to belittle some ideas as 'Taoist mythical' as you do this in multiple threads... It is a natural explanation; man as a microcosm of the universe... call it mystical if you personally want... it will become your personal barrier. It is the very connection and 'return' which joins us to the 'Way'... Yes... Dao as 'Way' is ok to use.

You need to drop an 'understanding' alone of "the physical movement" fetish to realize that 'practices' can effect any movement they want. You will have to practice that yourself to speak to it and against it; reading from books is not sufficient explanation. The diaphragm can be raised directly on demand; that is, in a word: Qigong. Your exposure or practice may not include such concepts.

I agree with CD's explanation that the Diaphragm moves upward with reverse breathing... The opposing point is not an argument of mystical explanations, so let's stop such nonsense to duck out of a discussion. Normal Abdominal Breathing (NAB): - Inhale --> Stomach expands - Dan Tian expands (acquires Qi) - Diaphragm expands --> downward - Lungs follow diaphragm and will expand as a last step if directed Reverse Abdominal Breathing (RAB): - Inhale --> Stomach contracts - Dan Tian contracts (sends forth Qi) - Diaphragm contracts --> upward - Lungs follow diaphragm and will tend to be voided of air

Personally, I would not mix the two ideas. I would just support the translation with a terminology piece. Those who want to explain it in terms of practice could. Like you, I can't stay up with pace of this translation to offer much. There is life outside of the keyboard after all

For what it's worth, Fabrizio Pregadio uses "Celestial"...

Consider: 天师道 There must be a reason it is virtually translated by everyone as "The Way of the Celestial Masters". Because, IMO: This is Alchemy... not philosophy.

Thanks again and yes, I know what you mean. I appreciate your comments. Straw dogs is from chapter 5 of the Dao De Jing: 天地不仁以萬物為芻狗 , 芻狗 = straw dogs I see you translated this opening as: Heaven and Earth are ruthless, They see the Ten Thousand Things as part of one whole.

A cross between amusing and preposterous. Part of the problem is a translation running at warp speed with no discussion. It will be even more chaotic to try and comment on any part later. IMO, it should be restarted at some point after it is complete and then discuss the sections in sequence. It would be good if some of the more veteran alchemist shared in the terminology as we might see interesting lineage issues. But I agree with what was said about it being a 'book of codes'. We'll get nowhere if the arguments are as baseless as the ancient chinese didn't make any star maps. People ought to treat the topic with some seriousness and that means some research before talking. Links and other evidence of the source would be a benefit to keep silly claims and denials out of the discussion. An open mind is almost required if one is going to talk about alchemy without any prior experience. In the end, a rich source of links and sources would be very interesting. Not that it would be any kind of final word on alchemy meaning, but it offers people the chance to research more themselves and come to their own conclusions through reading and practice.

See Oracle bone examples http://hua.umf.maine.edu/China/astronomy/tianpage/0004H_oraclebonemap6716w.html - the first documented solar eclipse - over 4000 years ago in 2137 B.C. - The first recording of any planetary grouping was made by the Chinese in 500 B.C. - In the fifth century B.C., the Chinese made the Book of Silk, the earliest known atlas of comets. It contains 29 comets, which is a collective history of about 300 years. They were referred to as "broom stars." The book was discovered in a tomb in 1973. - Shih-shen catalogued 809 stars in 122 constellations in fourth century BC http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Chinese_astronomy The sources are endless... Compound this with the fact that these stars or references have more than one name; the milky way, north star, etc, have more than one name in ancient references.

thanks for the answer. I've got a few questions that I feel I could only someone like you, so I hope you'll indulge me: 1. Lao Zi mentions 'the ancient ones' and there is no doubt (at least in my mind) that he is part of a lineage of thought and energy experience, although maybe not himself a shaman. How was he exposes to the Great Way and would he be considered to have achieved his understands through meditation, awareness, energy experience, master/student? And was he simply in a shamanistic time or was he also taught (learned, understood) in a shamanistic way? 2. What other early writers, ancient ones, etc influenced him? I often read of the connection to Huang Di, as in Huang-Lao philosophy; he also went to Qing Cheng Shan in retreat, etc. Whereas some Confucians saw some of the ancients as Sage-Kings, daoist seem to portray them as part of the decline of the Way among men (and ruler). Is there any special connection between Lao Zi and Huang Di? 3. Any other understandings about Huang Di? I have read in the Xiang'er Manuscript commentary a different understanding of 'Straw Dogs' (DDJ5) that it was a custom in Huang Di's time to hang them on the door as a reminder to the people; later it was used as a ceremonial piece, then trampled and discarded to prevent the evil Qi it absorbed being used again. Also, Huang Di had a spiritual teacher in Xi Wang Mu (The Queen mother of the West); other stories say he sought out the sage Guang Cheng Zi on Mt. Kongdong to ask about the perfect Dao. Some say Lao Zi was Guang Cheng Zi (yet another connection). Thanks in advance.

That is exactly what inner Alchemy spells out. Man as a microcosm of the universe allowed them to attain a point of seeing and feeling the inner [cellular] level. This is why your level of understand Qigong is mostly at the physical level. You don't know enough about the alchemy, Shengong or Medical Qigong levels to discuss what the ancients share in their coded writings.

Here is a decent explanation: THE DOCTRINE OF THE ELIXIR Here it shows a 'reversing flow', not a revolving one. It may be a distinction without a difference since it just means the reversal occurs in the spine, which could be taken as revolving the spine (which is code for Milky Way). DANTIANS Here is a more detail discussion with a little more science and less alchemy, to show the Medical Qigong picture, by Jerry Johnson:

Here is Muller's translation: Confucius said: “If you govern with the power of your virtue, you will be like the North Star. It just stays in its place while all the other stars position themselves around it.” Note, 'around it'... it is still the idea of centrality. The ancients KNEW about the fixed position of the north star in many cultures. TO claim otherwise and refuse to even research it further is stupidity. The fact that the Big Dipper and North Star are found on oracle bones shows they at least knew of these very anciently. A study of ancient chinese astrology is actually interesting if one takes the time. But it is easier to bow when one doesn't really know alchemy. For those interested, Mantak Chia writes a lot on the big dipper and north star energies and how they interact with the upper dan tian, where the spirit extends back to the universe.

You often are obsessed with 'logic' in translations but you don't apply it here. Stars do NOT live together... they have been observed to move around the North Star since ancient times. That is the harmony of centrality; the ruler is the center of the people; they all move relative to his central position of authority and that maintains harmony. North Star = Emperor Star = Celestial Equivalent

Is the reference to the big dipper literal or figurative? Meaning, is the big dipper simply used as a metaphor for the rotating up and down? Or put another way, is the physical and real dipper playing any role in this? Where is the north star in this rotating?

I neglected to note that this translation is from Legge... the most prolific translator of ancient chinese texts... So I can see you have a low opinion of his scholarly understanding and skills as a translator. But he shows why a direct translation misses the mark; if the North Star is in its "appointed place" (其所) then it stands to reason/logic that the meaning is the rest are rotating. Yes, I absolutely agree... you lack communication skills [and translation skills] to convey the meaning of a passage at times. But apparently you can't even understand what an ancient philosopher meant concerning the North Star. The amount of mis-information you have spewed at this site is enormous. Forgive some of us if we want to call BS on it at times. Translate [directly] on...

That is not my understanding. The upper dan tian is the location of the 'mud pill' previously mentioned... It is related to this. This is the path of 'returning'. That is definitely not true. Most ancient cultures knew it did not move. Confucius even said: 為政以德，譬如北辰居其所而眾星共之。 He who exercises government by means of his virtue may be compared to the north polar star, which keeps its place when all the stars are rotating about it.