dawei

The translation is confusing...that's the point of explaining. Maybe you want to talk in terms of lead and mercury and claim that is all one needs to know. But it is not explaining the neidan/alchemy aspect. At least you could be honest and just say you don't explain because you simply do not know it's deepest meanings. I think you've proven that enough times, just like this time by avoiding my point. Translate away...

As stories goes, I have a question on one. When I visted Qing Cheng Shan (青城山) in Sichuan province they said Lao Zi was heading there upon his departure from his homeland and came and waited for the border keeper (maybe 2 years). The border keeper studied the great Way and eventually meet up with Lao Zi there. There are other stories of his going to India, etc. If you know this, can you give some further info on where he went and stayed?

And yet again... simply a definition without explanation... What connects the 3 dan tians and effects transformation? Tell us the 9 chambers within each dan tian? If your going to claim definitions then fully explain it...

I think you had a physiological response... based on emotion, infatuation, or thinking... or the combination... I suspect the latter combination. That you did not follow your nature to pursue it, this lead to more built up angst. The thing about nature is: Follow it... it flows. If you don't follow it then stagnation builds up and then a dam produces.

Then let's define some of it... Lead and Mercury = Heaven and Earth = Dragon and Tiger = Water and Fire = Yin and Yang = Spirit and Qi = Original Spirit (元神) and Original Qi （元气) = Innate nature and Life Destiny = Knowledge of the Dao and Purity = Original Oneness. Qi Hai = lower dan tian region 'true earth clasping true lead, true lead controlling true mercury, mercury and lead return to earth, the heart still and unbowed'. - Opening poem of the 400 Word Essay on the Golden Elixir by Zhang Boduan Blend as one the Lead and Mercury, If you want to form an Elixir - "When neither great nor small suffer, Both kingdoms stay entire". If you ask me, "What is this thing, The True Lead?" I reply - "Like moonlight... At the end of the day on Western River". From Wu Chen Pien The teachings and practices of the early Quanzhen Taoist masters "Flying the Metallic Essence Behind the Elbows" Combining the Lead and Mercury allows Original Qi to naturally flow from the abdomen up the spine to the brain. Perform at the time inbetween Zi (midnight) and Wu (midday);

子 = Zi = midnight (11pm-1am) 午 = Wu = midday (11am-1pm) 子午流注 = Zi Wu Liu Zhu = Flowing = Think MCO... Qi flow and circulation through the Governing and Conception vessels...

I could give the Xiang'er commentary but wonder if we shouldn't move all this discussion to the Chapter 4 discussion area. HSG intentionally divided the Lao Zi into chapters and is one of the first to do so. The Xiang'er appears to follow an ordered text. The Han Fei commentary is more haphazard relative to following a Lao Zi ordered text and older (200 bc) than the HSG (160 bc). I mentioned else where that HSG titled Ch. 1, the Embodiment of Dao... He may of borrowed that from Han Fei since it is prominent in his work. You mentioned that WB appears to 'make stuff up'. I would not put it that way. If you compare his commentary to the received version there are substantial differences. A good read is: A Chinese reading of the Daodejing: Wang Bi's commentary on the Laozi with Critical Text and Translation By Rudolf G. Wagner. He clearly shows that WB follows HSG in many instances where the commentary would suggest otherwise. There is a compelling argument that *someone* forced his text to agree with the HSG in many places, although we have his commentary to see his true thought. Generally, I don't trust the WB.

Seems you have a new tact to just troll... have your fun when members are actually trying to tell you something of some value and consideration.

Maybe more like: Open your eyes and mind

If something is not mentioned in a chapter, then it does not exist and cannot be used to understand the chapter? Lest we forget: The "De" chapters were first in older manuscripts, and Ch. 1 was added post-Guodian. Best advise is: Get outside of one chapter; get outside of one book; get outside of one way of thinking...

I am not sure I agree with this bolded part. I think at times we are trying to hard to make Dao (Wu) everything and ignoring the role of "De" in the manifest world (You), for example.

In the YiJing it says: "Heaven is XUAN [in color] and Earth is Yellow". But it's not just Xuan as color but as impenetrable or unfathomable as a philosophical meaning, but original/natural as a neigong/alchemy meaning. We should note that the MWD version has Wan Wu (Ten Thousand things) instead of Tian Di (Heaven and Earth). So there was a shift to Tian Di. Maybe we should as why? HSG believed the body was a microcosm of the universe and that he named Chapter 1, "The Embodiment of Dao" seems fitting to his belief system of neigong/alchemy. Heaven does come first in the cosmology of the Tai Yi Sheng Shui but in the Huainanzi it is equally arising. But separating Heaven and Earth is to seem them still as connected. And possibly as the upper dan tian (shen) and the lower dan tian (jing)... sounds familiar to the translation in the other post your doing? I actually agree with the "Wu" and "You" offset of commas and would associate that to Heaven and Earth as well. I think 'Heaven' is used much more loosely under the change from Wan Wu; It is more like universe and earth is the body (embodiment). Getting back to Xuan, specically in neigong/alchemy: Xuan De = profound natural virtue [the ability to communicate with nature via develop of shen/spirit]. Xuan Yuan = mysterious origin = Lower Dan Tian = Jing/fluids = Water Xuan Pin = mysterious female (Ch. 6) = Lower Dan Tian = Qihai point below navel = Water Mother = Lower Dan Tian concealing the Qi to keep the Shen (Spirit). Xuan Pin is the root of Heaven and Earth. It is the place where the Spirit resides the holy embryo is developed. In neigong/alchemy, this is in a place in the middle of the brain, also called the "Gu Shen" (Valley Spirit)... In The Thesis of the Valley Spirit's Immortality, it says: "What is Xuan? It is Yang and is the Heaven. What is Pin? It is Yin and is the Earth." It goes on to describe the interaction of Yin and Yang and how life arises. Thus, Xuan Pin is the mother of life. Further on it explains the interaction of the Shen in the upper Dan Tian with the Qi in the lower Dan Tian, unifying and harmonizing. -- Those who have Yang's EB book can find an excess of translations and explanations.

玄 = Mystery... but also means 'origin'... It was used as a 'loan' for origin. I already know that ChiDragon does not agree with that from past colorful exchange since no dictionary has it and no scholar he prefers mentions it. So you won't find it in a 'book'... drop the books and one will eventually find the meaning.

Another interesting issue in regards to this is 'extending intention'. Most are familiar with using intention in Qigong but it is usually in regards to their own body (or their own Qi). Experiencing (on both ends) extending one's intention to another's Qi body was probably the big 'ah-ha moment' for me.

I am very close to this way of thinking about it for the same reasons. But I don't really contrast it as 'practical' (philosophical) vs religious thinking. To me, it has nothing to do with whether it is religious or not; that is just compartmentalizing. It is more like a pot luck meal; it is made up of many ingredients. This is what attracted me to Medical Qigong; it has not strictly TCM or energy work or healing or qigong or shengong or philosophical or religious or spiritual or alchemic or shamanistic... it is all wrapped together in a very cohesive and natural manner. This is the road less traveled but it actually makes the most sense for me and a natural fit for how I think/belief.

A number of members have expressed the same in other similar threads. This is a similar point I've raised in the past: That whether or not one of these came before the other... shamanism, alchemy, and spiritual practice were before both of them. So it is really a meaningless comparison as if there are two horses in a race. It is a tree which has sprouted roots deep, far, and in diverse directions but connect at the truck.

Except I don't categorize things so black and white... I see room for variation and mixture. I consider myself a 'mutt' since I accept that many manifestations have arisen: I see the 'connection' that can exist. I accept that others see it very black and white and want to compartmentalize themself and others. Don't get so worked up... it's just a discussion.

I am not sure I follow your point. Is it that people are using it one way or another and they don't use it both ways: you want to imply they should use it both ways OR you want to imply they should not use it both ways I am not sure if the bolded part above is like sarcasm about what people do or more an imperative statement (what they should be doing).

It is not about fighting, or right or wrong... it was supposed to be sharing one's thoughts... but you'll get used to ChiDragon's way here soon enough...

You evidently did not read carefully when I said: metal [lungs] carries water [kidneys] Can't you see the association of five element to organ??? Again... you can't seem to read what I wrote... metal [lungs] carries water [kidneys] = SHENG CYCLE I studied it as part of Medical Qigong... but I am sure that your book reading and native scholars who think the DDJ is purely a philosophical work are to be preferred for your own safe keeping. I am not here to argue. I have twice presented my side with some detail and explanation. You have not presented anything yet except emotional outburst. So I'll step aside so you can enjoy your translation exercise here.

I have to agree with really everything you have said and glad you have started this thread. It confirms much of what I have thought as I have evolved in my understanding of the DDJ... And in DDJ6, dropping the nonsensical word 'valley' is the final confirmation. I see 'shamanistic' the spiritual wont to connect heaven and earth; this would be essentially code for 'returning to dao'. Anyways... good to hear from a daoist shaman master trying to get a few to open their minds to the deepest meaning of the DDJ

I am not going to argue the choice of word translation... since in either case it is completely void of any inner alchemy meaning. It is actually an easy conclusion in my mind when considering TCM and inner alchemy. You'll have to do better than show the five phase and proclaim that as proof of your argue about saliva. It did make me laugh though... In the Five Phases, metal [lungs] carries water [kidneys]... what the metal/lungs produce in saliva seeks to return to it's origin of the kidneys (organ of water and body fluids). Thus, the lungs functioning requires the kidney support; the saliva produces and nourishes; comes forth and returns. This is just a physical level... this is all meant to be applied finally to the Shen returning to Dao.

nice reply. I understand your point. In the book, Liao has Lao Zi as constantly pointing out that his way is NOT marital; the former is Tao Gong and the latter is man striving and endeavoring after something. So, yes, the latter requires much focus, dedication, training, and commitment to get their expected results... More power to those who take that path.