dawei

I tend to agree with both points; it is probably different and probably much more interesting IMO, what YJM means by EB is not just a practice or a technique; it is a state of the body's creating (or re-creating) a Spiritual Embryo. This is one of many components used to get to a final goal goal of spiritual enlightenment and being completely one with Dao. At this point, one is said to have united "Kan and Li" (heaven and earth, or Shen with Qi in the lower dan tian). Which means the Shen has been brought down to the LDT. In order to get there, you need to master: 1. Small circulation - MCO (with NAB and RAB); other breathing (Wuji and girdle, etc) 2. Grand circulations (including gates like palms, crown, root, souls of feet, etc). 3. Iron shirt / muscle tendon / bone marrow practices 4. EB The combination of all of these produce the final results which include: 1. The four refinements (Jing to Qi; Qi to Shen; Shen to Wu; Wu to Dao) 2. The five regulations (Body, Breath, Mind, Qi, Spirit) 3. Opening of the Spiritual Third-Eye 4. Return to Dao 5. Final Spiritual enlightenment This is my brief outline of the book's content as a practice and path to spiritual enlightenment. One can practice ANY of the above 9 items independently but that does not mean they have mastered what YJM means in this book as EB. One may achieve the EB breathing aspect but not have achieved many of the other items or the overall practice he is trying to layout. That all being said, what R_V relates is much more interesting to me since it seems to show how one can independently get the EB breathing state. If you read the YJM's book, you'll get this feeling that you need all sorts of prerequisites, but that is because he has a final goal, not just a breathing technique to layout. It seems to me what R_V describes is much more accessible and feasible. I personally find this is what we would benefit from understanding more instead of incredibly detailed paths laid out by books like this one and those that Mantak Chia puts out. These books are very detailed and can border on dangerous to try without proper guidance. I see no danger in what R_V relates. But if what one wants is a complete spiritual path then I suspect one needs more than just EB breathing alone. JMO.

In the EB book, I see he mentions midnight and noon. In his early book, Chi Kung, Health and Martial Arts he mentions three times: 1. 15 minutes before sunrise 2. 1 to 2 hours after lunch 3. half hour before going to sleep He says if only once or twice can be done to drop the afternoon. You might see many recommend 3-5am since that is the Lung 'hour' in TCM. I have an agreement with myself that if I wake up at this time, I'll do some meditation. You will be amazed at how your body will suddenly take you up on that dare

You should really try to find the book. Then you will know that what you link to is not YJM's EB. His technique is based on his 30 years of practicing it, and based on the various ancient texts which he offers many translations of. Those demonstrations you show are the very opposite of what YJM talks about in his book. Although he mentions the 'belt vessel' it is not like the 'turtle breathing' demonstrations in the videos. And EB is not about just laying down and just doing breathing. YJM has a full recommended path to follow which includes various 'fundamentals' before EB is attempted; including the understanding of Jing-Qi-Shen regulation and how they relate to Wuji and Dao... then practice the MCO with NAB, then with RAB (which is emphasized more), then grand circulations, then muscle-tendon and brain-marrow practices and others to open the third-eye, then lowering the Shen to the lower dan tian. YJM also talks about how the DDJ holds a key to understanding and talks about chapters 16, 6, 10, 25. He quotes many, many texts like the Baopuzi and those which talk about the breathing methods. They seem to all have a common theme as explained by the Ling Jian Zi's Dao Yin Zi-Wu Recording: "... breaths deeply but not from the nose."

Just so you know, I have reported you to the mods. Anyone else thinking it is necessary may do so as well. You refuse to listen to what others have advised you concerning how to communicate and share relevant background or practices and topics. Your bent on divisive arguments which derail threads and hijack threads. Please let the topic be discussed.

You have questioned most people here in terms of their style or their training or they knowledge of chinese medicine (even those who explicitly stated they were trained in it). You've challenged well reputed authors like Chia as not knowing what he is talking about and now Jwing-Ming as having second thoughts of 40 years of practice if he were a doctor instead? I can't think of any other word other than a one-man side-show troll. Why are you here and can't you just stay out of threads? (This does not expect a response; just a departure). Let people pursue topics they are interested in discussing and if you have some background and practice or expertise to share, then do so. Otherwise, stop the BS.

What is the wrong impression? How do you stack up against him: http://ymaa.com/publishing/authors/dr.yang_jwing-ming Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming Learning With The Grandmasters Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming (楊俊敏博士) started his Gongfu (Kung Fu) training at the age of fifteen under the Shaolin White Crane (Bai He) Master Cheng, Gin Gsao (曾金灶). In thirteen years of study (1961-1974) under Master Cheng, Dr. Yang became an expert in the White Crane style of Chinese martial arts, which includes both the use of bare hands and of various weapons such as saber, staff, spear, trident, two short rods, and many others. With the same master he also studied White Crane Qin Na (or Chin Na), Tui Na and Dian Xue massages, and herbal treatment. At the age of sixteen, Dr. Yang began the study of Taijiquan (Yang Style) under Master Kao, Tao (高濤). Dr. Yang's tai chi can be traced back to the Yang family through Master Kao's teacher Yue, Huanzhi (樂奐之), an indoor disciple of Yang, Chengfu (楊澄甫). After learning from Master Kao, Dr. Yang continued his study and research of Taijiquan with several masters and senior practitioners such as Master Li, Mao-Ching (李茂 清) and Mr. Wilson Chen in Taipei. Master Li learned his Taijiquan from the well-known Master Han, Ching-Tang, and Mr. Chen learned his Taijiquan from Master Chang, Xiang-San. Dr. Yang has mastered the Taiji barehand sequence, pushing hands, the two-man fighting sequence, Taiji sword, Taiji saber, and Taiji Qigong. Becoming a Teacher When Dr. Yang was eighteen years old he entered Tamkang College in Taipei Xian to study Physics and also began the study of traditional Shaolin Long Fist (Changquan or Chang Chuan) with Master Li, Mao-Ching at the Tamkang College Guoshu Club (1964-1968). He eventually became an assistant instructor under Master Li. In 1971 he completed his M.S. degree in Physics at the National Taiwan University and then served in the Chinese Air Force from 1971 to 1972. In the service, Dr. Yang taught Physics at the Junior Academy of the Chinese Air Force while also teaching Wushu. After being honorably discharged in 1972, he returned to Tamkang College to teach Physics and resumed study under Master Li, Mao-Ching. From Master Li, Dr. Yang learned Northern style Gongfu, which includes both barehand techniques, especially kicking, and numerous weapons. Ph.D in 1978 In 1974, Dr. Yang came to the United States to study Mechanical Engineering at Purdue University. At the request of a few students, Dr. Yang began to teach Gongfu (Kung Fu), which resulted in the foundation of the Purdue University Chinese Kung Fu Research Club in the spring of 1975. While at Purdue, Dr. Yang also taught college-credited courses in Taijiquan. In May, 1978 he was awarded a Ph.D. in Mechanical Engineering by Purdue. Yang's Martial Arts Association was established in Boston, MA in 1982. With the intent of preserving traditional Chinese Kung Fu and Qigong , Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming began training students in the rigors of Shaolin Long Fist and White Crane Gongfu as well as Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan. Currently, YMAA is an international organization, including 56 schools in Argentina, Belgium, Canada, Chile, France, Holland, Hungary, Iran, Ireland, Italy, Poland, Portugal, Spain, South Africa, the United Kingdom, and the United States. In the early 80's, Dr. Yang wrote several books, published by Unique Publications. In 1984, Dr. Yang retired from his engineering career, to undertake his life-long dream of teaching and researching the Chinese arts and introducing them to the West through many books, videos and DVDs. Becoming an Author Founded in 1984, YMAA Publication Center has published many of Dr. Yang's groundbreaking books and videos, and is a pioneer in the cultural exchange between the East and West. While the West has successfully developed the material sciences, the East is celebrated for its levels of spiritual cultivation. During this ongoing period of exchange, the building of bridges is critical for the successful integration of the achievements of both societies. His books and videos have been translated into French, Italian, Spanish, Polish, Czech, Dutch, Bulgarian, Russian, Hungarian, Portuguese, Croatian, German, and Farsi. In summary, Dr. Yang has been involved in Chinese Gongfu since 1961. During this time, he has spent 13 years learning Shaolin White Crane (Bai He), Shaolin Long Fist (Changquan), and Taijiquan. Dr. Yang has more than thirty years of instructional experience: seven years in Taiwan, five years at Purdue University, two years in Houston, TX, and 24 years in Boston, MA. On November 29, 2005, Dr. Yang conferred the title of Taiji Master to one of his senior students (Roger Whidden)for the first time, which by tradition bestows the honorable title of Grandmaster upon Dr. Yang. Worldwide Acclaim Throughout the year, Dr. Yang travels between YMAA International Branch and Provisional schools worldwide. He also frequently travels within America and around the world presenting lectures and seminars on Chinese martial arts and Qigong. He has visited Argentina, Austria, Barbados, Botswana, Belgium, Bermuda, Canada, China, Chile, England, Egypt, France, Germany, Holland, Hungary, Iran, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Mexico, Poland, Portugal, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Spain, South Africa, Switzerland, and Venezuela. Dr. Yang has published over 35 books and more than 50 videos on the martial arts and Qigong. Currently he is president of Yang's Oriental Arts Association, Boston, MA. Since 2004, Dr. Yang has worked to develop the nonprofit YMAA Retreat Center, a training facility in Humboldt County, CA, where he is training a select group of students in a comprehensive 10-year program. He continues to offer seminars, in California, Boston, and around the world. Offices President of Yangs Martial Arts Association, YMAA International. Board of Directors of YMAA Publication Center Vice President of the International Wushu-San Shou Dao Association Co-Leader of the 1994 North American Martial Arts Demo Team Honorary Member of the American Shiatsu Association Honorary Advisor of the Martial Arts of China Historical Society Honorable Appointee to the Eastern U.S. Kung-Fu Federation Awards Prix Bushido, French Book Award, 1st Place, 1997 Inside Kung Fu Magazine - Man of the Year 1990 Black Belt Magazine - Kung Fu Artist of the Year 2003 Inside Kung Fu Magazine - Man of the Year 2007 Martial Arts Publisher of the Year 2008 by the 11th World Congress on Qigong and TCM, Dr. Effie Chow and the American Qigong Association Dr. Yang can be contacted by e-mail. BOOKS Analysis of Shaolin Chin Na 2nd ed.: Instructor's Manual for all Martial Styles Ancient Chinese Weapons: A Martial Artist's Guide Arthritis Relief 3rd ed.: Chinese Qigong for Healing and Prevention Back Pain Relief: Chinese Qigong for Healing and Prevention Baguazhang- Theory and Applications, revised edition Baguazhang-Theory and Applications 1st edition Children's Storybook - Fox Borrows the Tiger's Awe Children's Storybook - Mask of the King Comprehensive Applications of Shaolin Chin Na Eight Simple Qigong Exercises for Health: The Eight Pieces of Brocade Essence of Shaolin White Crane: Martial Power and Qigong Essence of Taiji Qigong: The Internal Foundation of Taijiquan Northern Shaolin Sword: Forms, Techniques & Applications Qigong for Health and Martial Arts- Exercises and Meditation Qigong Massage: Fundamental Techniques for Health and Relaxation Qigong Meditation- Embryonic Breathing Qigong Meditation: Small Circulation, The Root of Spiritual Enlightment Qigong, the Secret of Youth- Da Mo's Muscle Tendon Changing & Marrow Brain Washing Classics Tai Chi Ball Qigong - For Health and Martial Arts Tai Chi Chuan Classical Yang Style, The Complete Form and Qigong Tai Chi Chuan Martial Applications: Advanced Yang Style 2nd ed. Tai Chi Secrets of the Ancient Masters: Selected Readings with Commentary Tai Chi Secrets of the Wu & Li Styles: Chinese Classics, Translations, Commentary Tai Chi Secrets of the Wu Style: Chinese Classics, Translations, Commentary Tai Chi Secrets of the Yang Style: Chinese Classics, Translations, Commentary Tai Chi Theory and Martial Power: Advanced Yang Style 2nd ed. Taiji Chin Na: The Seizing Art of Taijiquan Taiji Sword Classical Yang Style: The Complete Form, Qigong, and Applications Taijiquan Classical Yang Style: The Complete Form and Qigong Taijiquan Theory of Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: The Root of Taijiquan The Root of Chinese Qigong: Secrets for Health, Longevity, and Enlightenment Xingyiquan: Theory, Applications, Fighting Tactics, and Spirit DVDs Advanced Practical Chin Na In-Depth Analysis of Shaolin Chin Na Chin Na In Depth Courses 1 - 4 Chin Na In Depth Courses 5 - 8 Chin Na In Depth Courses 5 - 8 Chin Na In Depth Courses 5 - 8 Chin Na In Depth Courses 5 - 8 Chin Na In Depth Courses 5 - 8 Chin Na In Depth Courses 9 - 12 Eight Simple Qigong Exercises for Health - The Eight Brocades Emei Baguazhang (8 Trigrams Palm Kung Fu) Essence of Taiji Qigong Five Animal Sports Qigong Five Animal Sports Qigong Knife Defense - Traditional Applications Knife Defense - Traditional Techniques Against Dagger Knife Defense - Traditional Techniques Against Dagger Knife Defense - Traditional Techniques Against Dagger Kung Fu Body Conditioning Northern Shaolin Sword Qigong Massage Saber Fundamental Training Shaolin Kung Fu Fundamental Training Shaolin Long Fist Kung Fu Basic Sequences Shaolin Saber Basic Sequences Shaolin Staff Basic Sequences Shaolin White Crane Gong Fu Basic Training 3 & 4 Shaolin White Crane Gong Fu Basic Training Courses 1 & 2 Shaolin White Crane Gong Fu Basic Training Courses 3 & 4 Shaolin White Crane Hard and Soft Qigong Shuai Jiao - Kung Fu Wrestling Simple Qigong Exercises for Arthritis Relief Simple Qigong Exercises for Arthritis Relief Simple Qigong Exercises for Back Pain Relief Sword Fundamental Training Tai Chi Ball Qigong DVD 1 Tai Chi Ball Qigong DVD 2 Tai Chi Chuan Classical Yang Style (long form Taijiquan) Tai Chi Chuan Classical Yang Style (long form Taijiquan) Taiji & Shaolin Staff Fundamental Training Taiji 37-Postures Martial Applications Taiji Chin Na in Depth 2-DVD set Taiji Fighting Set - 88 Posture, 2-Person Matching Set Taiji Fighting Set - 88 Posture, 2-Person Matching Set Taiji Pushing Hands Courses 1 & 2 Taiji Pushing Hands Courses 3 & 4 Taiji Saber, Classical Yang Style Taiji Sword, Classical Yang Style Taiji Sword, Classical Yang Style Taiji Wrestling - Advanced Takedown Techniques Taiji Wrestling - Advanced Takedown Techniques Taiji Wrestling - Advanced Takedown Techniques Taiji Yin/Yang Sticking Hands Taiji Yin/Yang Sticking Hands Understanding Qigong DVD 1: What is Qigong? Understanding the Human Qi Circulatory System Understanding Qigong DVD 2: Keypoints of Qigong & Qigong Breathing Understanding Qigong DVD 2: Keypoints of Qigong & Qigong Breathing Understanding Qigong DVD 3: Embryonic Breathing Understanding Qigong DVD 4: Four Seasons Qigong Understanding Qigong DVD 5: Small Circulation Understanding Qigong DVD 6: Martial Arts Qigong Breathing Xingyiquan (Hsing I Chuan) YMAA 25-Year Anniversary 2-DVD Set VHS Videos Advanced Practical Chin Na V1 Advanced Practical Chin Na V2 Arthritis Relief: The Chinese Way of Healing & Prevention Back Pain Relief: Chinese Qigong for Healing & Prevention Chinese Qigong Massage V1: Self Massage Chinese Qigong Massage V2: With a Parnter Comprehensive Applications of Shaolin Chin Na V1: Defense and Counters for Barehand Attack, Blocking & Kicking Comprehensive Applications of Shaolin Chin Na V2: Defense for Knife Attacks & Grabbing, with Additional Offensive Techniques Eight Simple Qigong Exercises for Health: The Eight Pieces of Brocade Emei Baguazhang Volume 1: Basic Training, Qigong, & Eight Palms with Applications Emei Baguazhang Volume 2: Swimming Body and Its Applications Emei Baguazhang Volume 3: Bagua Deer Hook Sword and Applications Northern Shaolin Sword: Kun Wu Jian and Its Applications Northern Shaolin Sword: Qi Men Jian and Its Applications Northern Shaolin Sword: San Cai Jian and Its Applications Shaolin Kung Fu V1: Fundamental Training Shaolin Kung Fu V2: Fundamental Training Shaolin Long Fist Kung Fu: Gong Li Quan and Its Applications Shaolin Long Fist Kung Fu: Lian Bu Quan and Its Applications Shaolin Long Fist Kung Fu: Shi Zhi Tang and its Applications Shaolin Long Fist Kung Fu: Twelve Tan Tui and their Applications Shaolin Long Fist Kung Fu: Xiao Hu Yuan and its Applications Shaolin Long Fist Kung Fu: Yi Lu Mai Fu & Er Lu Mai Fu with Applications Shaolin White Crane Gong Fu 1: Basic Training Shaolin White Crane Gong Fu 2: Basic Training Shaolin White Crane Gong Fu 3: Basic Training Taiji & Shaolin Staff V1: Fundamental Training Taiji & Shaolin Staff V2: Fundamental Training Taiji Ball Qigong 1: 16 Circling Patterns Taiji Ball Qigong 2: 16 Rotating Patterns Taiji Ball Qigong 3: 16 Circling, Rotating & Wrap-Coiling Patterns Taiji Ball Qigong 4: Applications Taiji Chin Na In-Depth 1: Cross Hands & Clockwise Yang Coiling Taiji Chin Na In-Depth 2: Rotating Neutralizing and Counterclockwise Coiling in Crossed Pushing Hands Taiji Chin Na In-Depth 3: Parallel Hands Taiji Chin Na In-Depth 4: Against the elbow’s Na in Pushing Hands Taiji Fighting Set: 2-Person Matching Set Taiji Pushing Hands V1: Yang Style Single & Double Pushing Hands Taiji Pushing Hands V2: International Yang Style Double Routine Taiji Pushing Hands V3: Moving Single and Double Pushing Hands Taiji Pushing Hands V4: Large Rollback Moving Pushing Hands Taiji Saber Classical Yang Style: Qigong, The Complete Form & Applications Taiji Sword, Classical Yang Style: The Complete Form, Qigong, and Applications Taiji Wrestling 1: Taiji Shuai Jiao Taiji Wrestling 2: Taiji Shuai Jiao Taiji Yin & Yang Symbol Sticking Hands 1: Yang Symbol Practice Taiji Yin & Yang Symbol Sticking Hands 2: Yin Symbol Practice Taijiquan, Classical Yang Style The Complete Form and Qigong The Essence of Taiji Qigong: The Internal Foundation of Taijiquan The Scientific Foundation of Chinese Qigong: A Lecture by Dr. Yang at The University of Massachusetts White Crane Hard Qigong: The Essence of Shaolin White Crane White Crane Soft Qigong: The Essence of Shaolin White Crane Xingyiquan: 12 Animal Form Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan: and its Applications

Baopuzi, The Master who Embraces Simplicity, written by He Gong said in Shi Zhi (Unblocking the Stagnation): "Fetal breathing, the way of conducting Qi, enables those to do such incredible things. The master of fetal breathing breaths in and out without using the nose and mouth as a fetus breaths in the uterus; he has adopted this skill since that time. At the beginning of learning to conduct Qi, breathe in through the nose first, hold it, calm your mind and count from 1 to 120, then breathe out through the mouth gently. Breathing in and out must be so gentle that you cannot hear any sound of your breathing. Exhale more slightly and gently than inhaling so that a feather placed in front of your nose and mouth won't move (the motionless feather indicates no air is flowing). Carry on practicing and increase the counting number to 1000, then you will rejuvenate day after day. . . . I used to follow my grandfather who could stay under water for more than a whole day when we were drunk or at the height of summer because we were able to do fetal breathing. "

As long as ChiDragon stays away from the thread, you'll likely get some good advice. I recall one disciple stating how his master had mastered this breathing so he could stay underwater for an hour. I have this book as well as many of his others. He does not give a strict guideline for the method and says to read the translations. I look forward to comments in this thread.

A few thoughts: 1. I agree with using the older text here and the structure Hendricks use of MWD-A (which Nina appears to follow too). But I see it slightly differently. 2. Hendricks mentions how later versions drop the "therefore" at line 3 and I think that is should stay to keep the continuity. 3. The 'sick of sickness' , 'flaw of flaw', 'sickness of sickness' are all missing the point, IMO. This is called a reduplication in chinese (病病) where you double a word; usually it simply stresses emphasis in some way, not that the word must be repeated twice. It could be like solicitous (anxious desire or concern) or even deep distress or affliction; graveness. It is in opposition to 尚, which can be favor, esteem, value, etc. Knowledge which is not-knowing is favorable [in life]. To not know not-knowing is distressful (or an affliction) [in life]. Therefore the sage is not distressed/anxious [concerning life] It is because of such graveness, [that for him] there is no such distress/afflication. It does not quite read as well as I would like but that is my first thought on it.

I think your just feeling grounding; not rooting and mistaking the two.

If 'internal and external' are truly united, then contraction will probably change the rooting to more like grounding; ergo, you break the rooting. Contraction is tension; tension is resistance; resistance to what? TO energy flowing down, yours and your opponents. As my qigong master says: 'if all you are doing is grounding, then you had better have one hell of an iron shirt when I strike you... instead, root and relax and channel my energy down to the earth'.

It's too bad you want to regurgitate theory instead of practice... this is simply wrong... but I know you have never practiced regenerating cellular or energetic matrices. Nor read about such things... For you, it will never happen due to the ingrained belief system. I might call this 'tricycle qigong'; three wheels are needed for balance.

"It depends what you want to do"... It always depends. There is not really a competition among styles or practices as some have suggested. It just depends on what you want to do, achieve, and what works or you feel works. I worked with my Qigong master today who brought out some Japanese sticks and wanted to display 'rooting vs grounding'; and then hit with 'muscle' vs 'emotion' vs 'mind' vs 'qi' vs 'shen' vs 'breath'... and then he showed how to combine any of them... and all of them. It depends...

Have you seen the bloated discussion we had on "De" here? LaoZi's "De" - as compared to the Confucian "De", and (moral) "Virtue IMO and briefly, "De" is Dao in you. That is not a virtue as much as a capacity/power/efficacy to generate and live; This is how and why we can 'be'. The Confucian Xing has two schools of thought: 1. Confucius and Mencius - It was a 'natural course of development'. 2. Xunzi - 'What is so by birth' I think both are right, in a Confucian ideal... what was given and developed. Xing - Human-ness; what makes us human (objective) Ren - Essence of developing human-ness (subjective) Thus I see the Confucian virtues as in accordance with Xing. As Lienshan first quoted: 四海之內其性一也。其用心各異，教使然也。 "Within the four seas, [everyone’s] xing is the same. That they use their minds differently is caused by teaching." and: 仁生於人，義生於道。或生於內，或生於外。 "Humanity is born in human beings; morality is born of the Way. Some things are born inside [us]; some things are born outside [us]." 仁，內也。義，外也。 Humanity is internal. Morality is external. Confucius said in the Analects: 性相近也，習相遠也. "By nature men are similar; by practice men are wide apart" or as the Three Character Classic says in the opening lines: 人之初 - People at birth, 性本善 - Are naturally good (kind-hearted). 性相近 - Their natures are similar, 習相遠 - (But) their habits make them different (from each other).

"There are those who, only superficially emulating the way of the former kings, do not understand its real substance. . . . What they have seen and learned is indeed extensive and varied. Basing their ideas on ancient lore, they concoct their new theory and call it wuxing. In fact, this theory is perverse and bizarre. It is a lot of obscure and impenetrable nonsense. They dress it up in eloquent language, and with great reverence say: "These are truly the words of the exemplary persons of old." Zisi sang this song, and Mencius chimed in with it. The deluded and foolish Confucians of our present day are thrilled with this theory and are wholly oblivious to where it goes wrong. . . . This then is the crime of Zisi and Mencius." "There is an alternative explanation of Xunzi's complaint against the wuxing doctrine associated with Zisi and Mencius that might be more plausible. To begin with, we have no corroborating evidence that the wuxing cosmological theory that emerges in the Han dynasty was current as early as Xunzi. Given Xunzi's antipathy to such speculations and his willingness to speak out against heterodox philosophical ideas, the absence of any clear reference to this development would suggest that the target of Xunzi's ire is probably the moral doctrine associated with Zisi and Mencius." "Finally, the passage from Xunzi condemning Zisi and Mencius is anything but ambiguous. It describes the wuxing doctrine as a gross distortion of historical antecedents, denounces the hyperbolic language in which it is presented, deplores the popularity it has garnered among contemporary Confucians, and blames Zisi and Mencius by name and in unequivocal terms, for their role in promoting what he takes to be heretical Confucianism." "Xunzi's rejection of the wuxing doctrine would seem to be an opening volley in what becomes a contest between two importantly distinct interpretations of Confucian philosophy: the Xunzi lineage that had some prominence in the early Han dynasty, and the Mencian lineage that in the course of time was to supersede it." My link

Interesting, thanks for sharing that. I would like to point out that the Laozi "De" (德) which many like to translate as "Virtue" is the counterpart to Confucius "Xing" (性, which is the nature of things). This is why I (and I think others) object to translating De as Virtue; it is of Dao and it's not virtue in the sense of human virtue/morality. And if it takes too many words to explain that then another word may be better... IMO. Here is is as a PDF download: My link

As Steve, and many others have pointed out over and over again: Your stuck in some narrow-minded concept of what Qigong is and anything outside that paradigm is seen as simply wrong. These issues move around and embrace Qigong, inner alchemy, Daoist magic, Medical Qigong, Shengong practices, etc. It is very easy to understand why you don't comprehend the information shared but you seem to have no time nor open-mindedness to investigate the information shared by others. If your not interested to practice or experience any of these methods that is certainly your choice. But to attempt to talk on these topics as an expert puts you as dangerously misleading others who are serious about such practices. Yes, Peace in return.

In about 20 minutes of research, I can find more than enough comments and post them here. Still secondhand information and missing and making no sense?

The spiritual legacy of Shaolin temple: Buddhism, Daoism, and the energetic arts My Link "Shen is developed from jing and qi in the upper dantian, which is located at the level of the third eye, and is transformed into wuji (infinite space or void). This process is likened to steam or smoke dissipating into space. In turn, wuji returns to the Dao, or the divine."

http://www.taoism-uk.org/doku.php/taoist_principles "Wu Ji In the beginning, nothing existed. In Chinese this is called Wu Ji (meaning absolute nothingness). Wu Ji is synonymous with the Buddhist word sunyata, meaning emptiness, the void, pure openness, no boundary. Wu Ji is also sometimes referred to as the mystery, the nameless, the great mother, the source." "Conscious realization of Wu Ji is called “Returning to the Source." (explanation that Wu Ji is Buddhist emptiness) "Emptiness gives birth to shen, spirit. Shen gives birth to Ch'i, energy. Ch'i gives birth to jing, essence or form. Form gives birth to discrimination, to desire and aversion, and to confusion about who and what we truly are. Thus the Taoist yogi seeks to transform jing back into Ch'i, to transform Ch'i back into shen, to transform shen back into emptiness." (Wu Ji is the chinese term; Emptiness the Buddhist concept which most understand so the author uses that to convey the meaning of Wu Ji) "The Three Dan Tians (Cinnabar Fields, Elixir Fields) are the inner alchemical cauldrons where transformation of the Three Treasures takes place. Jing is transformed into Ch'i in the Lower Dan Tian (also called the Yellow Court), located in the space between the navel, kidneys and sexual organs. Ch'i is transformed into shen in the MiddleDan Tian (also called the Crimson Palace in reference to the heart), located in the center of the chest. Shen is transformed into emptiness in the Upper Dan Tian (also called the Crystal Room) in the center of the brain." (Same as said in the previous post)

http://www.ichikung.com/html/dantians.php "The ultimate goal of internal alchemy is immortality, a complete transformation of the body's Jing, Chi (Qi), and Shen. Jing, Chi (Qi), and Shen are the three fundamental energies necessary for human life, and are collectively referred to as the "Three Treasures of Man." To accomplish this transformation, alchemists first gather and transform Jing into Chi (Qi) in the Lower Dantian. They then gather and transform Chi (Qi) into Shen in the Middle Dantian. Next, they transform Shen into Wuji (the absolute openness of infinite space) in the Upper Dantian. Finally, they merge Wuji into Dao (divine energy)." "4. Upper Dantian Center: The center of the Upper Dantian is located in the pineal gland, which is a small, reddish-gray colored gland attached to the base of the third ventricle of the Brain, in front of the cerebellum. The pineal gland is a mass of nerve matter, containing corpuscles resembling nerve cells and small hard masses of calcareous particles. It is larger in children than in adults and more developed in women than in men. The pineal gland is the organ of telepathic communication, and receives its impressions through the medium of vibrations caused by thoughts projected from other individuals. When an individual thinks, he or she initiates a series of vibrations within the surrounding energy field which is radiated out from his or her body as energetic waves and pulses. Therefore, this area is considered the space where the Shen transcends the limitations of form and merges with the infinite space of the Wuji. From the Wuji, the Shen then progresses towards reuniting with the Dao." "TRAINING OF THE UPPER DANTIAN In Medical Chi Kung, the training of the Upper Dantian is used for cultivating spiritual intuition and light. Upper Dantian training exercises are commonly known as Shengong meditations (Arhatic Yoga by GMCKS), and are the primary methods used for advancing the doctor's psychic ability."

This says it all for me... Not only is the post title very apt, since the OP knows really nothing about the MCO, but knows as little about Qigong. Medical Qigong is closer to ancient medicinal practices than to modern day Chinese Medicine. The 'spiritual' aspect was removed Chinese Medicine and Medical Qigong was abolished outright by the CCP... what is left of Chinese medicine and Qigong in China is brain-controlled explanations... like we read here. If someone were too rational and only wanting to discuss things logically linked, then there is no way to ever understand Wu Ji and Dao as part of the universal processes which brings about life... the the 'returning cycle'... and may explain why one cannot even understand Lao Zi when he talks about Qigong (or early alchemy). Yes, it will make no sense to them. And they can go back to their native scholars all they want to seek answers and be left with nothing but more mis-information to spam and troll with among the internet.

I have likewise noticed the longer I am in that subforum the more my english badder

Yes, but his translation of MWD A goes: And yet of people, no one... The MWD A and Fu Yi text have 'Ren' (人) instead of (天下). Give that a go "Yet [among] you people, no one is able to ..." ?