dawei

Now you want it without judgement... sorry, I think life does not work that way I am generally against this... what if there are no issues in 3-6 months; it is not an indication of the current mod group but the TTB season. I personally don't know what problem we are trying to solve but the latest issues raise some concerns to me. I think the mods need to make some better decisions on overall interactions and potential warnings. What is the point of reporting posts if it is a tool alone. Changing mods does not mean there is a better handling of issues. Raise the current issues and improve them. JMO. Sorry to derail.

Thanks Mal... your a really nice guy caught up like the others trying to moderate this stuff. But I beg to differ; Seth's outburst required no delay... That should of been like "Seth... you dog... small smile... sorry dude but take a week to chill a well deserved outburst"... And then think about provocation... and not just Scotty but TTB provocation/trolling issues going on. I personal feeling as to moderation is that you cannot go from completely silence to suspension; it does not do any justice to the board... You need intermediate 'warnings' as necessary. I feel if this was done at the right times then you help to guide the board mission. This is very delicate and maybe not a direction of the TTB... but food for thought... Thank Mal

Generally understandable... but the sudden banning response to Scotty's diatribe questions some of that explanation. So consistency is not there. Anyone who has moderated knows when it is not possible... that is why there are supposed to be moderators. Hopefully moderator decisions are not a democratic vote.. .again; that is why there are moderators; objective decision making. I am not going to go into interpreting his posts and understanding. I don't have that longevity here. But his response, outrage, and alternate-name posting is completely understandable IF you understand members feelings. I get it. It does not mean I feel he is justified but it does mean he feels he is not being understood. Since he was the one in question, it is important to understand both his thought and Seth's! I really appreciate your response and generally really like your handling and contributions. Thanks.

是以 - therefore / thus / so (and other related meanings in context) I don't follow what version you mean or where is "Both". I see comments on above and below; front and back. juxtaposed opposites is what's important here, IMO.

I left my version wordy to simply convey some of the literalness; but I would not translate "100" anything as I would not translate "100 surnames". In both cases it means 'all' of them. That is why I used the world 'realm'. The river and sea is regarded as king of the [100] mountainstreams The next line may depend on whether you think it refers to the 100 mountainstreams or the river and sea. But this separates them when they are connected; The downward action of water connects (Transforms) mountainstreams to rivers and oceans. This is a result of the downward capacity of the [100] mountainstreams. I personally think you get struck on 'act' for Wei; it means some action is taking place, so just state the action, not the word 'act'. It is this [downward] capacity whereby the [100] mountainstreams are [transformed to] king (river and sea). Now i know there will objection to this last line but again, there is 'able action' (neng wei) so one should just state that action; It is the downward capacity which connects the mountainstreams and the river and sea to be one and the same. The moutainstreams are a self-rulership; they follow their nature and become something else or more (transformation). While "king of the 100 mountainstreams" appears to be the direct translation, the meaning is what we know from direct experience; they are one and the same. So I am trying to translate and preserve that idea.

Here is how I see the opening: The rivers and oceans are the result of the action(1) of the realm of the valley waters. This is because the able action of the realm of the valley waters downwardness(2) Thus the able action as king of the realm of the valley waters(3) (1) This is, the natural flow of water (2) This is the property of the natural flow of water; downward (3) This is the result of the natural flow of water; The key is that the source of the ability to reign is that it follows its natural ability; thus it transforms to the king among all the waters above (although is itself those waters from above). Guodian: - Line 1 has 浴 (Yu) instead of 谷 (Gu). It is clear that the latter substitution of 'valley' is not the focus but the valley waters. Mountainstreams seem equally fine - Lines 1-3 repeat a phrase in all three lines: 为百浴 - action of the 100 valley waters. The last two lines are parallel with 能为百浴 so later versions made the first line parallel by adding a 能 in line 1. It is not equated to 'lower' but the ability to follow it's natural course, which for water is downward. [能]为百浴王 vs 能为百浴下 "Lower" in itself is not the issue really as the next lines talk about forward and back; above and below. It is also unfortunate that later versions added the word 'desire' to make it as if this is the sage follows a desire.

I'll toss you a bone as I tend to agree with this line. The Guodian did not have the word "good". I think that is an unfortunate change since it tends to personify the action of water; What would be 'bad' concerning the action of water? So much was changed in the original to the received that I think it's better to go back to the original to gain insight to what was intended.

But that is your thought; not the ancient chinese... Otherwise they would not have a saying like: "All within the Four Seas are related (brothers)." Water and mountains are often used to denote that which makes up the land or surrounds the land. JiangShan (Rivers and Mountains) and SiHai (Four Seas). So, a singular translation of Hai is ok but don't try to justify that the ancient chinese thought in terms of a single sea alone. That does not seem to hold water.

You'll just have to take up your battle with the original poster of the comment. I have no side to the matter; just pointed out a mis-reading (or maybe it's a mis-writing). It seems both sides further clarified their points. Feel free to continue their discussion if you want.

The word for Numinous is "Shen", which is more often translated as "Spirit". Many of the chapters here talk about "Gui" and "Shen" which we discussed in DDJ Chapter 60: http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/19941-ttc-study-chapter-60-of-the-tao-teh-ching/page__view__findpost__p__283698

I think you made some good points in your post but I would like to point out that i think your misreading what scotty said. He is NOT talking about Buddhist Schools of Cultivation but Taoist Alchemy. He simply said that Buddhist enlightenment is the first step in some schools of Taoist Alchemy. I personally could not call that misinformation as if I know every single teaching, lineage, and branch of Taoist Alchemy to ever exist. I personally will give some leeway to people sharing their personal experience and whatever method they were taught. Just because I was never taught it (nor know it) does not mean it does not exist. I think this thread has turned into a competition of what is better, best or to be debunked, and that's not useful to a broad understanding of meditation methods. Again, I agree with many of your points. Nicely said overall.

It may not of been a simple disagreement, but a blanket statement made against all meditation methods (see below in bold); this kind of comment is not really helpful towards an understanding that there are MANY methods and there is no need to setup superior of one vs another. In the end, the person finds which one they really connect to and get something out of. Hopefully there is acceptance that there is enough variation in the world of meditation to provide everyone a chance to see what works for them. It is great to hear what works for certain people but it does not mean it must work for another; that is their own journey.

I personally would not use it in that way; more like energetic materials of the body, which there are others but these three are considered the pillars (treasures).

I was not taught that way but there could be other teachings. I know it as: 1st - 1 inch 2nd - 1.5 feet 3rd - several feet Source: Chinese Medical Qigong Therapy by Dr. Jerry Johnson

I think the question to ask is not 'should we believe' but, why can some actually do it? Instead of constant skepticism one should be inquisitive to know why such practices can be accomplished. If you look at some zany practices from Tibetan, it is not about believing it but why does it actually work (and why can we seem to do it). When one says "this does not work", it tends to really means they cannot do it, not that the practice itself does not work. I think focusing on Qi is good. Oxygen is only a part of the picture; if one focuses on Qi they tend to get the bigger picture.

I really hate to ask this.. I said I was done but I keep seeing this 'synonymous' comment... I must be a Flagellant If we substitute the synonymous part.. it reads: The Son of Heaven, which one does oneself? The Son of Heaven, which one is the intimateness? What does that even mean?

Interesting idea to root the heart to the kidney. I know of some practices which focus on this but never used the tongue position in combination like this. Thanks for sharing. Maybe SmallFur, who explained the tongue connection as a 'mudra' (which I know this term for hands) has some thought.

Hey Scotty, My info is from Jerry's program... interesting to hear different locations or terminology for what reason. I thought to post a picture of these but it's hard to follow up on that picture of yours

99.9% of the time, including during the day or for most practices, I place it on upper palate near and behind the teeth but not touching them; resting very lightly. This is called the "fire position". That is why it is done for most Qigong activity. Yang Jwing-Ming says to not touch the teeth as it can make you tired. I cannot vouchsafe for that tired feeling but the teeth is one of the five elemental tongue positions. Two indications of the fire connection could be frequent saliva (just swallow it) and when meditating you can lightly tap the teeth and there should be a soft numbness feeling as indication of qi flow. The Five Elemental Positions: 1. Earth/Spleen - Beneath teeth and gumline on lower palate; like opposite of fire above. 2. Metal/Lungs - Between the teeth 3. Fire/Heart - top palate near teeth but not touching 4. Wood/Liver - Straight upwards (12 o'clock) 5. Water/Kidney - Backside of upper palate where it is soft (1 o'clock)

It is the GUODIAN Rhythm he is talking about... A precise rhythm exists in every line but if you reverse or change any line, that one line is now out of sync... ergo, the original Guodian has internal evidence favoring it's order as correct. I cannot comment further. I am not really sure what your trying to prove...

It is the GUODIAN Rhythm he is talking about... A precise rhythm exists in every line but if you reverse or change any line, that one line is now out of sync... ergo, the original Guodian has internal evidence favoring it's order as correct. I really can't read or make sense of your english translations... they are just greek to me without using proper words in grammatical structure. SO I cannot comment further.

ok. Here is a first try to convey what I see in the opening and throughout. I don't think the traditional opening about enlightening or stupefying others is the point; And I don't think that it is that people are difficult to rule but the disaster in ruling lies with the ruler! Chapter 65: Of old, those who followed the Way Do so not for the purpose of being enlightened (1) But to nourish simplicity (2)(5) The disaster in ruling people is when there is too much shrewdness (1) Consequently, if one rules according to shrewdness the country is robbed [of opportunity and benefit]. When one rules without shrewdness the country is bestowed [of opportunity and benefit]. To know these two sides is to study standard movements (3) The common knowledge of studying standard movements is called Xuan De (Virtue of Heaven, or Original Power) (4)(5) Xuan De is profound and far-reaching. It gives all things its opposite effect and after that brings about Da Shun (Great Harmony).(5) Comments: (1) These two words are compared in the opening of Chapter 33. Note that I leave the 'shrewdness' ambiguous as it could be people OR the ruler... but the next line shows that I let it go where it appears to be going; it is the ruler. (2) I choose ‘simplicity’ since it conveys the meaning although ‘stupidity’ is a more direct translation, as in Zhuang Zi: "But that stupidity is akin to the Dao; you may with it convey the Dao in your person, and have it (ever) with you." – Legge. Also, I don’t see this as directed to other people (make others stupefied) but the person of old in relation to themselves (same idea in the ZZ quote). (3) The word here is “Shi” and is also a cosmograph; this was discussed in Two treads on Tai Yi Sheng Shui. This was the most ancient manner of studying the movement of the heavens by watching the big dipper rotate around the North Pole Star (Tai Yi). Compare usage in Chapter 22 and 28 of the word. (4) Xuan De was discussed in the “De” thread. I had mentioned how Xuan was substitute with the word Original and Wang Bi does that here. It is not dark or mysterious, it is ‘original virtue or power’. This is one of the few places I would not mind to use the word virtue as in The “Virtue of Heaven” since it is implicit we are not talking human virtue at all. (5) These three words occur together in a Zhuang Zi passage in which ‘Stupidity’ is called ‘Xuan De’ and Da Shun. ZZ: “…might seem to indicate stupidity or darkness, but it is what we call the 'mysterious quality' (existing at the beginning); it is the same as the Grand Submission (to the Natural Course)” -- Legge

The reversal of the two words [in the received version] breaks the parallel structure of 4 and 5. I would agree that 4 and 5 are not as well connected once the two words are reversed. (I don't see them as a repetition but broken parallel structure, or logical argument as you say). IT is clear that the Guodian is to be preferred. Henrick's comments about the rhythm word order requires the Guodian order; and then it also makes better sense relative to staying parallel structure to line 4.