dawei

Maybe that is a good way of showing a difference between neigong and shengong

I am still no closer to knowing what you think (or what I experienced) but you got my attention

yea... bad terminology. I should of said urogenital organs. Which is really the same as you first mentioned:

Early Chinese Religion: Part One: Shang through Han (1250 BC-220 AD) "The greatest innovation in the imperial cults of the Western Han was without doubt the celebration by Emperor Wu of the cult to Taiyi in 113 B.C" "The Ruler sacrificed to Taiyi in the center, the place originally occupied by the Yellow Emperor, who was now relegated to the SOUTHEAST of the alter... along with the Great One and the Five Emperors, a multitude of gods were honored, including the Sun, Moon, and the BIG DIPPER." This Ganquan sacrifice replaced the sacrifices of Yong and Feng (where Taiyi was normally sacrificed) which was observed up through Emperor Wen. The Chinese sky during the Han: constellating stars and society 阴德 - The power of Yin. "This Taoist indication of secret power concerns the invisible power (qi 气) exerted by by Taiyi or Tianyi from their high position... Furthermore Jin Shu mentioned Yinde and Yangde 阳德 (Virtue of Yang) instead of Yinde... in that case yin plus yang plus yi (One) makes three... yin and yang are the two halves of Tianyi, the Heavenly One." Taoism and the arts of China "... Taiyi was a cosmogonic god, a creator of the universe whose actions mirror those of the Tao... Taiyi is the first god described in the "Nine Songs" a series of shamanistic hymns found in the ancient anthology of the Songs of Chu (Chuci)." The Songs of Chu and the "Nine Songs" are generally attributed to the first great poet Qu Yuan who lived around 300 B.C. A brief writing called the "Heavenly Questions" is also attributed to Qu Yuan and is a series of questions which covers a wide range of mythology. In here, Yin and Yang are called "darkness and light" and wonders how they came together. This is an unusual reference to their original and unrelated meaning (shady and sunny) in the oracle bones. As well he asks about the "eight pillars" and why they were too short in the SOUTHEAST. "The inscription for Laozi (Laozi ming), the late Han stele documenting Laozi's divination, states that Laozi "concentraing his thinking on the cinnabar field [dan tian], saw Great Unity (Taiyi) in his purple chamber [gallbladder], became one with the Tao, and transformed into an immortal." In Taoist inner alchemy, Tai Yi resides in the Purple Chamber and moves along the three fields of the body (ie: Three dan tians). In other writings he resides in the upper dan tian. The Book of the Center says: "The Tao is me, it is the Supreme Lord of the central summit... the Pole Star which shines on my forehead, between my eyebrows, like the sun (it is) the Great August Emperor of Heaven. It is my energy, I was born of that energy (breath)." Ge Hong's Bapozi, chapter 18 has sections called "Guarding the One" and "Meditating on the One". The latter begins: "The One resides at the North Pole, in the midst of the abyss. In front is the Hall of Light (mingtang-upper dan tian), behind is the Crimson Palace (jianggong - middle dan tian). Imposing is the Flowery Canopy (huagai - third eye between eyebrows), great is the Golden Pavilion (jinlou)! " Classical Chinese literature: an anthology of translations, Volume 1 "Emperor Wu was a keen patron of Shamans and had a weakness for lavish ritual, particularly for night-time rituals involving massed choirs and troops of dancers... he was introduced to the worship of Tai Yi by his favorite Shamans. Tai Yi was 'their' god--the god whom they would undertake to summon into his presence." Taiyi on the Move (206BC—25AD) - pictures

Your now making Heaven and Earth both Yang lines??? A hexagram goose chase is not the answer to an astronomy blind spot Tai Yi was the Supreme Deity of the Sky, as Hou Ti was of Earth. It is a cosmology with similar passages to the DDJ but is most notable as an imperial religion solidified by Emperor Wu of Han. That the story originally is found in Chu is not surprising given their strong Shamanism. I'll provide a few more links in hopes you give up this up as the history is very clear on what Tai Yi represented.

I am hesitant myself to say it was Qi sensation, although I'll accept it as that. I have just never felt anything similar in any practice nor heard of anyone having experienced it. Because the normal sensation is a thin feeling to me varying in intensity; but this was more like 6 volts DC running through me. It was actually quite disturbing to feel. If anyone has stuck their tongue on a 9V battery to test it? That was the feeling. And it had a slight periodic pulse to it. Whatever it was, it felt more like a current than Qi.

That may be one answer to deal with one specific idea of "feeling of Qi". I won't know if what I experienced two different times in the same place ever occurs again until the future. I would be curious to hear if anyone has ever had a 24/7 buzz for many weeks on end. It was in the jing area.

There's a lot of ancient books outside of LZ and ZZ... and archaeology with ritualistic findings. It seems most just like to stick to a few books and call it enough and be skeptical of anything else. You can be inquisitive or a skeptic. No problem.

Well... the ancients which LZ and ZZ refer too... and shamans... If they allow an ancient history section, we might be able to explore some of this

It does depend on how one defines that. And I know your's is purely a physical existence. Unfortunately, the ancients never thought this way.... but I am not here to change anyone's Way here

I like a lot of what Steve raises so just use some of those comments as a point of reference: I first came to a practice of Qigong through group and pairs energy work. We were never told what we could not do, only all the possibilities with energy emission. Most of it was 'hands-off' but it was very clear to me that given the right environment, it is quite easy to feel, receive and emit Qi. Based on the practice, intention was often brought in a a powerful aspect (as steve noted). While many teachers would say these are advanced for later stages, it depends on how it is taught, IMO. Everything is possible but does not mean it should be done haphazardly. I also found this when doing meditative practices, and still do today. I also don't even pay attention to an area and it buzzes. I was quite intrigued by the idea of the 'channels' and then did specific exercises which were specific to channels. And repeated them a few times to test if it was chance or not. Then I looked at a meridian chart to confirm if what I felt was truly along that channel and they were. I have had enough acupuncture to also say that it is clear that certain "lines" stimulate a sensation or flow. I generally agree. I think Jing is something transported (or transformed and transported) within the bodily functions. This is a very interesting way of putting it. The only think I might share is that the "focus" can be absence; you may or may not be have any focus and experience it. Maybe the point is that 'awareness' is open and that is enough sometimes. At other times, a focus can bring the experience right there. --- My feeling of Qi is as many have related: flow, tingle, buzz, percolating. The most unusual experience was a continuous buzz 24/7 around the Jing area. It never stopped for weeks on end. I had two qigong people 'scan' me and both felt the pulsation but had no idea why it was occurring. It has happened twice but has stopped both times after a few weeks. What I would finish with is the tremendous power of the mind/intent, particularly with Qi emission. As I mentioned, I practiced this from the beginning and so I would say that "intent" should be understood more as "visualization and imagination". There is a technique called "invisible needle" which is where one forms an acupuncture needle and then places in into a person. I have done this a handful of times and each time the person related feeling a shot of energy go along a meridian. I have had it done to me a few times and it cannot be explained so easy but can be experienced.

I am glad to see someone actual write this out. I do agree with the first part. As is said that true healing occurs in the 5th dimension, it is the realm of complete union with Dao. That it is about self-cultivation and revolves around Qi is only one of the levels. I would say that it is probably the most common level and highest level for many. The next level would be Spiritual (Shen) and then Divine (Dao). This seems to be mostly preserved in Medical Qigong as how ancients (shamans) followed.

I think the miscommunication is as follows: 1. Most everyone in that other thread pointed out that breathing is so important that one has to know what kind of breathing is being done. In some cases 'no-breath' was done. I already posted a link describing the ancients saying to "hold your breath for xx minutes"... but the article explains they never meant to literally 'hold your breath'; you are not forcing your breath and instead it is more like respiratory action. Is "wu wei" truly the absence of action? If you can't get this, you can't understand effortless breath practices. It has been explained too many times. 2. Abdominal breathing is "buddha breathing". Once again, this is one of many kinds of breathing. Most people take it all very serious and don't hold to ONE and ONLY ONE kind of breathing. The breathing is based on the practice or goal. This is usually contrasted with Daoist breathing. As well, there is Martial Qi or Healing Qi there is Martial breath and Healing Breath. So there is just much more utilized than the simple idea of "Abdominal breathing". 3. Only breathing will cause a physical change in the body? You can't be serious with this comment. How would Qi emission, healing, and Medical Qigong ever work it it was only about "breathing". They are treating cancer by only breathing? Your back to talking about stuff which you know only a little about.

My impression is that some topics fall into the second page and onward very fast and therefore get 'lost' in the 'all together'. I help at a completely different forum and we found that many topics works very well to group the like issues. Users just have to burn some more calories clicking a few more times yes... we will see

Except my real focus was on individual practices defines the breath, not the person. So you are either side stepping the issue or truly don't comprehend what I pointed out. Your are the only one trying to define it as ONE WAY; So this must be a rhetorical acknowledge of what has been raised here. That it only matters based on the practice. There is no ONE WAY. Maybe this also part of the problem. I almost never focus on the lungs. Most of my breathing is into the LDT first, but I might also be breathing through my crown, or feet, or palms or various gates or even just the skin. The Lungs are almost never a visualization or intention in the various practices I know. I never raised the question of maximum oxygen, only you did. This is YOUR PRACTICE. If I try to pull in the maximum amount of oxygen repeatedly, my breathing go erratic because it is far from natural for me. The particular practice defines the method, amount, duration, exhale vs inhale, control, and use of breath; This is the "regulation of breath". And there is the regulation of the Mind, Body, Qi and Shen. The practice prescribes which ones and how to do. My assessment so far is that you only interested in the regulation of the breath (as maximum) and the body. You've dismissed the 'Mind/Intention' as a distraction and 'Qi' as a chaotic idea, and all together avoid Shen. Did I get this correct?

The problem above is that breathing in AS MUCH AIR as possible is NOT NECESSARILY NATURAL. It will be very irregular for some (or most). SO you already deviate from your persistent comment about 'natural breathing'. The reason you don't agree with percentage breathing is, maybe either you have never practiced it enough to see the benefit; you only read about it and make up your own mind; you are not willing to consider another practice other than what you think is best. What is best for you is just that: FOR YOU. You don't seem to have any real understanding of breathing methods; only the one you practice. There are many breathing methods and each one is as natural as the intent of the practice requires... it is not a distraction; it is a natural part of that particular practice. Is the practice to purge, tonify, or regulate? Then use the appropriate breathing; it is natural for that particular practice. Each breathing technique has a purpose but your unwilling to conceded this despite the body of sources cited and practices mentioned.

I agree. At a minimum, I would add: 4. Regulating Qi 5. Regulating Shen

I don't know that first phrase but you previously said that 'fire' had to do with intention and breath. Here is how I know the phrase 'huohou' as one of the three essentials of 内丹 (inner alchemy or elixir): Huohou: The fire stands for the spirit (application of the mind or capacity to cultivate). I have seen the phrase translated as "Heating Control" since it has to do with the internal practice (not the practitioner) in terms of time, duration, sequence in terms of the Qi circulation. So these are kind of 'control' elements to the internal practice. The internal practice, as I know it: 1. Refine Essence, convert to Qi (lower dan tian) 2. Refine Qi to nourish the spirit (middle dan tian) 3. Refine the spirit to return to nothingness (upper dan tian) 4. Refine nothingness to integrate to Dao This is focusing on the prenatal elements. A focus on the postnatal elements would mean a focus on semen (essence), breath (Qi) and the thinking mind (spirit). But the dividing line is not really there on some level since they support each other (pre and post). Another interesting shared word is formed by Qian and Kun (乾坤) to mean 'stove-ding; they are the two elixir fields. Qian represents the head and is 'ding' which is an ancient furnace used to burn fire, or refine elixir. Kun represents the abdomen and is the stove.

You mean release the text they are studying and practicing from? And I assume you mean it's not in the link called "Books"? I can ask someone close to him if they know.

Or as the joke goes: Anything with legs... except a table ... but I would not put it by the supreme pragmatic in them to find a use for it (ie: wood to burn for cooking the food).

The only silliness now going on is attacking a link meant to clarify the points being made. You should of stopped while you were clearly ahead in worthwhile comments instead of attacks on links. The devil is in the details in some cases.

one thing which I think is not mentioned yet and is more like a 'checkup' is to find a very good cranio-sacral therapist who can read the energetic alignment of the entire spine and the flow of the cranial fluid throughout. If there is any anomaly, the entire body is affected but it's not easy to trace it back to the source of the spine; but these therapist can. So, it is best to get it checked out and get that worked on as needed since no amount of stretching will simply 'fix' that. Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craniosacral_therapy great thread. thanks for raising this.

I think this is the "no breathing" being described: The Way of Qigong - Chapter Section: Embyronic Respiration

玄關 - Xuan Guan or sometimes as: 玄門 - Xuan Men There are many names and places attributed to this, including the "Spirit Valley" (DDJ6).