dawei

I completely agree with reading the Cleary version over Wilhelm, but here is the Wilhelm version for easily reading some of the passages: The Secret of the Golden Flower -- Translated by Richard Wilhelm Just search for "Hundred" to the various passages,such as: I am not sure what we are capable of accomplishing in 100 days is the same as those alchemist who spent their lives surrounded with this way of life. As the above passage suggests: "the degree of industry in work and the degree of strength in the physical constitution must be taken into account."

I did not mean to imply he recommends Systema; he only told me I could find footage similar to what he learned, if someone wants to see combat skills with energy. He's approach is usually that a person should pursue their interests and create something unique out of the whole of experience. I think he would leave it up to the person to decide if they wanted to find out more about Systema or not.

But as you can see, even he knows someone will go he takes one more parting shot I thank a few who tried to share the broader picture of Qigong.

you did not get the english; then did not get the chinese; then told another they do this as always. your shtick is growing old on me. Have your fun, I am done with this one.

I think the former question is somewhat legitimate but the latter will not happen. But that means someone recorded combats which show would show it in a way that everyone believe it? I don't think so. I asked my Qigong master about his involvement in this since he was both a martial fighter and in military special ops. He said to look at the Russian Martial Arts used for combat. He said this is really the same training he learned (combine combat with Qi). He did say you cannot know the Qi involvement unless your the giver or the receiver of it. It's too hard to make it evident that an organ or the body's Qi field is truly penetrated. He had previously shown me this in three punches all with the same force: 1. Physical punch (moved back a bit) 2. Physical punch with Qi (moved back about 3x as much) 3. Physical punch with Qi and Shen (hurled over with gasp like I was throwing up) He assured me this was very light contact and it would be nothing to shut down an organ if he wanted. If all people want is a taste of such things, well, I guess if that is what it takes to believe they can go for it. I propose we find something worthing getting exposed to and learning it and one decides what they want to pursue later. Here are the Russian youtubes I could find. I am not saying this convinces anyone of anything and there is a fair amount of external power here; but one has to experience some of it, I guess: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edq6ad7CES8

Because you have never studied Qigong document or teaching? I am now under the impression that chinese have translated a lot of writings on this in the hopes that the west would understand since their own will not even read it. You can read one book alone for this: Yang Ywing-Ming, Qigong Meditation - Embryonic Breathing. There are countless ancient documents translated. Once one reads this book, there is no doubt that Qi is "beyond breathing".

External practice of what???? You cannot visualize the concept to an application? There is a lot more problems here than just word translation going on. You don't get concepts on some level, even when in chinese characters. This is the accepted terminology by chinese authors. I now realize you have not read any of this but want to speak out against it.

Thanks for being honest but it does not surprise me. For someone who has invented their own Qigong from TaiJi, there would be no need to consider such definitions as standards. And you said you don't use visualization as it "distracts" you. So you cannot visualize the ideas presented from chinese documents.

I think you still miss the whole point being made. It is not that breathing is not necessarily associated with Qigong. It has it's important place and function... and then there is "beyond breathing". That is the entire point I was making which you overlook. Your stuck in breathing alone and I think that is what many have been saying but I don't want to speak for others.

I am sure there is no final word to all this. I think Stig has a valid and reasonable original inquiry; that what we see posed as Fa Jin is not really true; which raises the question of the validity, and is there some yardstick or measurement that can be applied. The counter problem is as has been stated; some of the highest level guys will not simply come to our door step; some have practices and we are welcome to go to them; and in the end, it may not be measurable anyways. This is a right brain issue in the end being questioned by the left brain. So what is the ultimate point of it all? I agree with much of what is being said here in the last few posts but I don't think it's necessary to make it some sort of battle. What I will say, after thinking seriously for a day and talking to my Qigong master is this; the following is completely unreasonable to ask and this website may be the wrong place to demand proof anyways. "can you please show a demonstration of you using your skills either in full contact combat or in a scientific environment that is consistent with the protocol outlined in the OP?" --- I initially was willing to get involved in visiting someone but now I see no point in such guys as MP. He is not trained in Qigong and not in martial aspects from what I can tell. Whatever he has developed, he has and anyone can go see him. I think the point should NOT be in going to discredit people. Let's take a positive approach and ask someone who has experience to share that experience. Let us experience and grown from that. We may not find a Jedi master but let's work with those who are open and welcome such inquiries and let's learn more from it. For this reason, I would propose that the TB consider sponsoring some sort of retreat where we can bring together various masters to teach something in the aim of openness and learning. As a start, I will say that my Qigong master participated in full contact fighting in asia (undefeated) and was in a military special ops (their unit did not exist, if you get the drift); He can teach you how to use Qi in killing someone if that is what you want; he may not want to teach that. I can think of a number of topics of interest. So I think we should re-think the issue in a positive way; how we can all grow and be exposed to energy work. This is something I would truly be willing to help organize.

Hopefully you get your original question answered. IMO, you can think how martial artist intercepts (or deflects or side steps) a punch. Imagine that with energy infiltration or penetration. Have you ever felt that attack you?

You have talked 7 pages of breathing. I have not left it out in totality. That is what I said. And you said we are at the climax but have not moved on. So I pushed it along... I really don't know this term but understand it. Novice first worries movements or mechanics alone; then add in breath. This can carry someone a lifetime, if they want to stay there. There is a world "beyond breath" which is what Qigong is about. Seriously? Ok. The Beijing University of Chinese Medicine, Dept of Qigong says: 外功 - External Qigong stresses movement [in self practice]. 外功 - Qigong to strengthen the muscles, tendons and bones in the 'separating form' and the 'joining form'. The best known dynamic style is the Muscle/Tendon Classic. They further note that the "external" involves the ability to do "Qi emission and transmission" to "direct, harmonize, and treat an illness". My question to you is as follows: 1. Is your practice external as defined above? 2. Has that practice included Muscle/Tendon, Bone Marrow, or Iron Shirt practices? 3. Has that practice included Qi emission and transmission to harmonize or treat an illness in another person? I will let this stand as a Level 1,2,3 for External Qigong. The problem is that it does require Internal Qigong to achieve level 2 or 3. I offer the following categories of Qigong, but this is a chinese source: 1. Scholar Qigong - for maintain health 2. Medical Qigong - for health and healing, including others; emission and transmission to others for healing 3. Martial Qigong - for fighting 4. Religious Qigong - Enlightenment or Buddhahood 5. Buddha Qigong - for Buddhahood 6. Tibetan Qigong - for Buddhahood 7. Daoist Qigong - for Enlightenment I think you are a "scholar qigong" follower; what we can find in regards to even Confucius or Mozi. In fact, I think "Energy" work itself goes way beyond this... and I have see some aspects of this beyond.

We are talking about QIGONG. Imagine the wide world it covers. I infer your world is very, very small; moving arms about is EXTERNAL Qigong. This is novice practice. That is my point.

I think this explains the issue; you break your own fundamental definition which said Qigong includes using Yi (意) which "mind" is not the translated word I would use in qigong. As well, I would not translate Qi as "breathing". So your english explanation already deviates in two words and your own explanation shows you don't use "Yi" because it 'distracts' you. You earlier mentioned how the meanings of Qi are chaotic to you. I can draw some better conclusions now. I think you've come up with something based on Tai Ji and created your own Qigong within the parameters your thinking and mind can handle. Your practicing essentially novice practices and movements for 20+ years. There is actually nothing wrong with that, but once you try to claim what is Qigong based on this, then the problems natural show themself. I suspect your using physical practices but not really energetic nor spiritual nor shen level ideas. In other words, you followed the communist party directions to take the 'spirit[ual]' out of TCM There is a reason they banned Fa Lun Gong and then everything related to Qigong ran back into a mouse hole to hide. Here are your words: 特點是強調與意氣相結合的肢體操作。 especially, emphasized on the body exercise with the combination of Yi(mind) and Chi(breathing). -- Chidragon 意 - a thought / an idea / sentiments / intention / inclination / expectations / meaning / a hint / suggestion In Qigong, it is probably better understood as 'focused mental intention'. Anybody can do novice practices with proper Qigong breathing. I might suggest that without proper Qigong intention (Yi), one can probably not go to higher levels. Just take one book for example: Mantak Chia's Inner Smile and Six Healing Sounds Practices. The entire practice is heavily dependent on Yi; what can also be called imagination and visualization in Qigong practice and healing (not just self healing).

So is your interpretation of Iron Shirt practice nothing more than packing oxygen (retained Qi) and eventually creating a layer of oxygen (retained Qi) around the mid-section to form like a solid wall (of Qi=Oxygen)? At least we're closer to talking about Qi and energy. Yang Jwing-Ming talks about it in this way: Electromagnet energy is constantly being produced in the body by biochemical reaction and circulated by electromotive forces (EMF); that Qi is bioelectricity or EMF. The surprising discovery about Qigong is that the mind (thinking/intent/visualization) is also an EMF. But Qi has broad application. In the Yellow Emperor's Classic of Medicine it is talked about as: flow of Qi, Yang Qi, stagnant Qi (caused by dampness), dispersed Qi (caused by winter), lost Qi (caused by summer). And comments like this are not explained by "breath" or "air": "As the sun sets, Yang Qi moves inward". "Sweetness disturbs the heart Qi" "The Qi of the zhang organs form the five spirits and the five emotions" "Emotions injure the Qi"

I follow your point and I think it is correct on the level where Qi means breath, but I see lots of examples where this falls apart (as a limited definition); but I suspect you'll just say your talking 'Qi' aspect of Qigong not generalized Qi? I'll just give one example but it may fall outside of what your trying to show: There is Qi in food. We get rid of the food yet the Qi is utilized by the body. Qi on air has the same effect. You can separate the Qi from the air; as is taught in our Medical Qigong program; "Exhale the air but retain the Qi". I do agree with your point here: "They are too many meanings converged to the character "qi". But it's not chaotic to me, it makes sense when I see the various aspects of Qi.

I agree. I usually see yuan fen as 'fate' , 'fated' , 'destiny, 'destined', depending on context.

Truly great ! which style ? When did you start Qigong practice and was that taught by another or you put it together based on readings? I am very curious as to the zazen meditation, which seems more zen buddhism based, but will like to hear your story.

Absolutely no offense. I am just for getting to the issue, once I am willing. I am in the US, but where? does not matter. I will travel anywhere for this. I saw he was in NY. I can create a business reason to visit NY anytime. But 18 months is a bit distance window. I wonder if there are others willing to go to NY, even this month? I really hate to delay anything if not needed.

Can you clarify what is a "little" experience? How many years?

To be honest to the 11th page request, although stated before and many comments before, let us bring an end to this; Neither Michael Phillips nor another of the many dozen Youtube examples you post are going to be flocking to your test lab. So it may be best to stop hurling questions about their coming to your test protocol. I already offered to go as a part of evaluation tests, but you ignored any reply on that. I think it is time to put up or... you decide. Let's visit Michael Phillips and test him. I will go with you. Just name a few dates that work for you. After that, we decide who is next to visit and test. Added: There is a small chance I could bring someone who can truly test him and put him to shame... but again... it is up to you to schedule this.

I think the fact is, he is not hiding himself. If you want to go to him, I would think he does not stop this. There may not be a purely scientific way to measure it but YOU can go and measure it yourself, with your BODY. Then go to another person and another person. Or once there, then ask a few people outside his 'fold' to participate. There are a few ways to truly get to the bottom of this but it does not happen by requiring people to come to you. If you question them, you'll likely have to go to them. I will go out on a long limb here and offer something: I would be willing to travel to such places with other folks if it was pre-planned, meet my schedule or was closer to me. I think the point of this thread has a lot of merit but let's not make it just a witch hunt. Let's seek out confirmation in as objective a way as is possible. But for some of us, we already have had this experience and confirmation. It does not mean that everyone out there who touts it can do it; and questioning should occur on some level.

You are not describing where is the breathing occurring, chest or stomach. How is the breathing occur: what happens on inhale and exhale. I think any answer needs to consider what you are calling natural vs habit. And maybe, what is your goal to the breathing? Just to be natural?

Yes, that is understood; very little variation among of a few of the words; this is not uncommon. Just a shame they departed from working with the first word.