dawei

To be fair, you pulled in history and then want nobody to comment? That is one of a few words used; there is no single word. But we can go back further than words by looking at archaeology and we know that at a minimum, movement meditation and breath were two important parts. CHinese Medical Qigong By Beijing University of Chinese Medicine, Qigong Research Laboratories: The skill of body-mind exercise that integrates body, breath and mind adjustments into ONE. They cite a passage from the Yellow Emperor's Classic of Medicine as having a passage which best fits this.

Can you share that definition?

I agree to a degree; it's harder to teach to westerners since we are to mechanical in our thinking and movements and want instant gratification (sorry about that 'we' in my pocket). Thanks for links, I want to look later at the youtube stuff. I see MP was simply certified to train; so I don't think he really is a healer himself. I suspect he can teach Qigong movements. I probably disagree with this since I see it as more a Shengong issue. But I understand your point.

The same thing happens at the last character, it is different in every manuscript as: 16.光而不燿。 - note last character 眺 - MWD: Gaze afar ; Eye Radical 耀 - FuYi: to shine / to dazzle / to show off / brilliant; Fire Radical 曜 - HSG: Glorious [as sun] ; Sun Radical 燿 - WB: Shine / dazzle / brilliant ; Fire Radical I have not decided on the ending, but I'll raise one more item for thought concerning the three lines prior to this: 12.是以聖人 - Therefore the sage... 13.方而不割。- Fang 14.廉而不劌。 - Lian 15.直而不肆。 - Zhi It is interesting but I am sure pure coincidence that after the line says, "there the sage..." and then each line starts as: Fang... Lian... Zhi... All of these are also surnames. Ok, back to reality...

I found something very interesting about the opening lines which will cause me to 'eat crow' in regards to Henrick I actually think he is closer to the original meaning. First, it is obvious [to me] that the first four lines are two pairs, in opposite reaction to each other... that is why the idiom MUST come after the opening four lines, it closes off and drives home the idiomatic meaning for rulers Then I realized that the first four lines should be themselves a kind of idiomatic expression... so I went on a hunt for pre-han word usages on the earlier manuscripts and I found something quite interesting. The original character at the end of line 2 is different in every manuscript (obviously everyone is trying to get at the right meaning)... but the oldest manuscript is 屯 which is Hex 3 from the Yi Jing and it equates to the idiomatic expression. 屯 = Sprouting; A root sprouting out of the ground for the first time encounters a struggle; but the outcome is to reach above ground to the light (light as in the last line in the chapter). Hex meaning: DIFFICULTY AT THE BEGINNING works supreme success in the end (Idiomatic) What has happened is that over time, each manuscript sought to better interpret the meaning and so changed the word as follows: 屯 - MWD; Hendricks translates as muddied and confused; but Hex 3 means difficult [at first] 偆 - FuYi; Happy 醇 - HeSheng Gong ; Pure (like unadulterated alcohol, not alcohol radical) 淳 - WB printed by everyone but not what he used: Genuine, pure, honest 惇 - WB used this; and his notes too: Kindhearted, honest 純 - Huainanzi uses this when quoting the four lines: Pure, simple, unmixed In doing so, they departed from the original idiomatic meaning and turned the first four lines into linear cause-effect instead of the polarizing effect of the idiom. The first six lines are then understood in this polarized manner: 1. Government not good 2. People can still be good 3. Government good 4. People can still be good 5. Bad luck turns good luck 6. Good luck turns bad luck 7. Who can know [anticipate] the result? With the basic idiomatic understanding down, one should then attempt to translate.

A few curious finds in this chapter. I focused most of my thought about the opening lines and closing one. While I think most get the gist of the opening (except Hendricks) I think the closing doesn't 'close' well enough. In looking deeper, I came up with something more interesting. But we know that Hendricks uses the older manuscript so he is translating according to his understand of those phrases. He does not say "Sage" in line 12 because the older manuscript does not have this. First I want to mention that just after the opening is a famous idiom known to probably all chinese. It is a juxtaposition of a duality moving in a cycle: The polarity of Fortune and Misfortune; Good Luck and Bad Luck. 5. 禍尚福之所倚 Misfortune-Yet-Fortune-That Which-Relies Ill fortune is that beside which good fortune lies 6. 福尚禍之所伏 Fortune-Yet-Misfortune-That Which-Hides Good fortune is that beneath which all fortune lurks The next line goes as: 7. 孰知其極 Who-Knows-This-Limit Who knows the ultimate result? Hendricks with "who knows where it will end" completely misses the point of this idiomatic saying and the cultural importance it carries. It has nothing to do with ending anything; it has to do with the inherent goodness inside of bad and inherent badness inside of good. The famous story from the Huainanzi is usually provided an example: http://www.noogenesis.com/pineapple/Taoist_Farmer.html

Flowing Hands: CHAPTER 58 When the country is left to rule itself, people are simple and honest. When the country is ruled by a dictator, who demands far too much from the people, people become cunning and rebel. When people become cunning, clever men employ their schemes to control and manipulate others. Such men grow rich and deceive others. They prey on the poor and simple. The more such men exist, the further the Dao is lost, until man’s natural way cannot be remembered. And so the people are trapped and have lost their way. Therefore the Sage says; 'go back to Nature, give up ingenuity, give up profit and material possessions, live off the land and enjoy a good and simple life.' Be forever contented and enjoy a full, unrestricted, peaceful life. Ni: When the government does not interfere, the people are simple and happy. When the government does interfere, the people are tense and cunning. Disaster is what blessing perches on. Blessing is where disaster abides. Who can say what the ultimate end of all possibilities will be? Appropriate means soon become unfitting. Good means soon turn to evil. Long indeed have the people been perplexed by the endless, topsy-turvy movement of life. Therefore, one of subtle virtue dissolves and eliminates the vicious cycle of duality. He may have sharp corners, but he does not jab. He may extend himself, but not at the expense of others. He may shine, but he does not dazzle.

Only confusing if one attempts to actually understand something without proper guidance and instruction. The problem becomes two fold: 1. People read something and then try it. maybe we call this Qi roulette 2. People find someone but that person does not really understand it too. maybe we call this the blind leading the blind I can appreciate your heritage and importance to this art. On the other hand, I am fully convinced that the chinese really never want to disclose the whole truth. Family teachings and secrets; masters noding their head whether it's right or wrong; expectations that 20 years is minimum for a beginning to go to the next level In the Qing Dynasty (Manchu rule) the court requested to be taught Taiji. In characteristic chinese fashion the chinese were quick to satisfy... and so taught them Taiji... lots of waving hands and steps All the 'outer aspects' were taught but not the 'inner aspects'. After that there [if one knows the chinese] a silent decision to keep this even more remotely secret from the world of barbarians So... who is share in the blame for a lack of western understanding --- Personal note: I am more and more convinced that whatever anyone learns is always less than the full potential since something is always held back. I see too many examples of this which is not worth the time to say now.

Let's not forget that the laying down dummy was soft and absorbs the impact; note how far the bat goes in. Iron Shirt is NEVER meant to absorb but repel or withstand. So it is very difficult to make a comparison; one is left with some observations, and as you note, without consistent measurements applied. A machine-generated swing would be a big improvement as well as people who know this is a potential source of an issue before they roll the cameras like they even know what they are doing

You may not realize that Wei Qi field in TCM, Qigong, and Medical Qigong may have different meanings. I'll just quote material since it's easy to find the Medical Qigong meaning: http://www.medicalqigongflorida.com/faq/what-is-medical-qigong/ Question: Who can benefit from MQ therpy? Answer: Medical Qigong has been used successfully to treat difficult, stubborn, and sometimes chronic conditions that do not respond well to other types of medicine. Children, the elderly, people in frail health, and highly sensitive people tend to respond better to Medical Qigong than other TCM modalities. All living bodies generate an external field of energy called Wei Qi (pronounced "whey chee"), which translates as"protective energy." The definition of Wei Qi in Classical Chinese Medicine (CCM), Chinese Energetic Medicine or Medical Qigong is slightly different than that of Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM). In classical TCM texts, the Wei Qi field is seen to be limited to the surface of the body, circulating within the tendon and muscle tissues. In Medical Qigong, however, the Wei Qi field also includes the three external layers of the body's auric and subtle energy fields. This energy originates from each of the internal organs and radiates through the external tissues. There the Wei Qi forms an energy field that radiates from the entire physical body. This field of Qi protects the body from the invasion of external pathogens and communicates with, as well as interacts with, the surrounding universal and environmental energy fields. http://www.qiwithoutborders.org/hara.html Scroll towards bottom to see The three wei qi fields

Wei Qi field. Depends what one wants to do with it. If you let it collapse to the body they you can at least approach the body. That is possible. I am not there to get a better understanding of what he is doing. I think if they wanted to truly test it, then strike a bone or something that ought to break. I did notice how the bat recoiled very fast though, as if possibly repelled. So there are a few things to observe but no conclusion to make. I have come to understand that martial aspects of Qi can be much more powerful than those who have no martial background. It's a general observation/opinion but I don't think that what I am calling this martial Qi ability is the same as what most do.

Have you ever touched someone's mid-area who has fully developed Iron Shirt? I have. It feels like a stone wall, it's not muscle. Even on the sides where normally it is more hallow feeling, and throughout the ribs. And I am talking about a guy how has no muscle tone at all; relaxed it is slightly more flabby. I am not justifying what this guy in the video has or does not have but of course if someone has not experienced this they might just talk it away as muscle flexing.

Ok. I am outvoted. I'll third the silent treatment approach

I am not into DaVinci Code Conspiracy Theory on the Lao Zi. Half the time your not talking even plan or intelligible english. There is no grammar or understanding. Maybe that is what you want? But you need to realize that nobody can discuss anything with you because of some of these issues. Maybe that is what you want? If this is what you want, then it is just spam writing. But again, I think you are better than this but I can't offer any discussion. This is a very specific subforum for discussion on Dao and other topics. Not a spam folder to dump anything you can come up with.

Seven holed flute from neolithic sites? Your too confused here: 管 - Guan IS NOT a character in any LZ manuscript. If you search the website you provided, that character is NOT used in DDJ5. 籥 - Yue is found in the MWDA and onward. It is a seal character. 龠 - Yue is found in the Guodian. It is an oracle bone character. --- I was talking about Tuo 橐 and it's potential meaning, if it was separated from Yue. So I am not sure why you quoted me in response but it seems not right.

Your making the mistake of looking at the wrong dictionary and not in context. 橐: It is a "sac-tube for blowing air into a fire"; ergo, it is the same idea of enclosed air in a flute which is blown! But it can mean a sac-tube or covering or a drum. If used with a flute it can mean as a compound, 橐籥: a "sac-tubed-flute". If you understood why they translate it as "bellows" (blowing air into a furnace with an instrument) you would not come up with ideas like "sack" as a nonsense translation. I know you are better than this.

I am a gemini, so I get to present two sides to this issue One Side: As a few related, I have also been on the receiving end of what is being discussed here. It is too hard to explain the sensation; maybe like a lightning strike or a Tazer but I don't want to truly test either theory You truly feel for a moment you have lost all coordination and balance and sensory control and you fight to find it as the effect wears off quickly as you disconnect. But I do think that the prejudice of students being shown with masters makes the "show" look too good to be true. On the other hand: We need better evaluation methods and controlled tests as Stig puts forth. Here is the rub: these kinds of people are a bit 'above' this. I am not sure how else to say it. But what would be best to have is not even feasible on a practical level. Guys like John Chang are hidden away and hard to find for a reason; They actually want to be left alone from the idea of 'testing'. I have found this in a few chinese 'healers' when in china. They are very recluse and one can feel they also 'hide the family teaching'. Here is something I will share which is not quite to this exact issue but relates to my points made; I have a back condition which has a spinal bone out of place (about an inch) and wreaks havoc on my body at times. Over 20 years I now see this is the source for many issues that have arise which everyone keeps trying to deal with independently. I have seen many people and most in the west are clueless as to any help,except surgery (as the typical answer). Cranio-sacral therapy is high on the list but they expect the body to 'heal itself'; moving a bone fixed in place for probably 30 years is not going to happen over night. So, the options grow very dim if you have a dislodged L5 on the spine, despite it's well known condition. I have finally find a "healer" in china who is willing to look at me and says he can fix this. His specialty is actually bone displacement. I had a number of people go watch him and let them be worked on. In all cases so far, they all said a previously diagnosed problem is now gone; in most cases, they were bone related and xrays confirm it. Here is the Rub (all over again): This guy is hard to find. You cannot go to him; he goes to your location. he has no phone and there is no means of contacting him. His 'trade' is 'family secret' but he will come if you find him. I now know how to find him and plan later in the year to go. Now. Regardless of my outcome, and maybe he can perform an extreme fix to an L5 dislodged by an inch; you will never get this guy under a microscope; your lucky to find him. Guys at this level want to be left alone. I found other healers in north china and its all the same; family secret but they don't care if you believe it or not. Keep up the good work here Stig and keep us all honest

I had to re-read 9 pages to realize what I'll contradict myself on before I comment more But I do want to explore an angle I have always consciously chosen to ignore about the ubiquitous translations as "Bellow". Wang Bi, whom I am most often wont to not follow has a different take to the word most often translated as "bellows". Due to the juxtaposition of Heaven and Earth; and Heaven and Earth vs Sage as indifferent, he says: -- Tr. Wagner he sees the compound word normally translated as "Bellows" to be separately translated as "Drum and Flute". This actually tends to agree with a lot of pre-han usage of the words which are often used in relation to music. The space between Heaven and Earth is like a drum or flute. Drum: The more it is beaten, the more sounds come out of it. The drum has no activity of it's own to create this resonance rather than another. Flute: Flutes are hallow. The flute has no feeling of it's own to prefer one sound over the other. The flute is hallow but it is impossible to exhaust it. The Drum all the beating notwithstanding, is inexhaustible. In the space between heaven and earth that-which-is-of-itself-what-it-is [of all entities] is put grandly into effect. This is why the space between heaven and earth is inexhaustible like a flute and a drum. Later he brings drum and flute back in to explain the last line. Honestly, a picture of a drum and flute with their hollow inside which is always ready to produce sound is an obvious choice over bellows (ie: the last line has 守中-preserve the inner aspect). I now think a translation as "The Space between Heaven and Earth" is the idea to think about but it may mean how Heaven and Earth are the container for the space, same as an instrument has the space contained in order to produce music. 天地之間 Heaven Earth of Middle/Space/During/Within/Pass Through I think the average person would understand a musical instruction metaphor more than a bellows.

Hey Mal, nice topic and you raised exactly what I thought as I read it; building vs using; I didn't realize you said this until I came back from the link. I think the I-Chuan and the Da Mo set are the two I would recommend above all others since they develop vibrational Qi power. This seems, to me, the fastest method although it should be practiced quite a while and in conjunction with some moving methods. I think it's best to mix Nei Gong with Wai Gong. It's too bad they don't show the I-Chuan series in that article. If I find my printouts I could PDF them and upload. The Da Mo series can be found in Yang Jwing-Ming's book, "Chi Kung, Health and Martial Arts". I could PDF those related pages if desired. As to the TaiJi comment: I generally agree but find that Qigong enhances the ability for Taiji to build up Qi. In that link, Figure 2 is very close to what is done in Yang TaiJi as 云手 Cloud Hands (Wave hands like cloud). When I get to here, my hands light up as if I were just doing the I-Chuan or Qigong. So one can let these practices cross-pollinate

Anyone whow knows a bellows knows it doesn't truly empty; that's the benefit of a metaphor But you make me realize that even as a metaphor, "empty" is really empty of meaning on a certain level because, in fact, the space between heaven and earth never exhibits that characteristic. A bellows "looks" empty when emptied but the space does not follow that metaphor really. You've made me realize that the traditional "word for word" translation of this part is maybe missing the point. Have to think about this.

I have read my whole life. I prefer books well written. That is my personal thing. I really don't care what he *might* of revolutionized; I am not going to worship him as some might want. I don't really personally care what he did for westerners who were too stupid to get caught up in Chia-fantasy. But the fact is, I didn't knock him as much as his writing and naivety at FIRST meeting John. I said he has grown from that time. You've taken quite a bit out of context for some pep rally your planning in his name? I'll just continue to study under the two Qigong masters I have. When I see stuff like neikung interviews as links, I'll watch them; I said I liked his interview. I am just not *surprised* by it all. Where is it said that a neikung master must be good at writing a book? Don't confuse issues or assume I am disrespecting what he knows, I am not talking about that. I shared a personal opinion which you don't have to agree with but don't think your going to get me to join your Kostas Club

I don't question his authority as much as I do his writing ability; his book with John Chang was nothing less than an awkward read in many parts. He came across as a novice to me. I would never of guessed he wrote something of value previously. And his absolute surprise at some things made me wonder if he studied martial arts in a vacuum somewhere. I could not figure out why he seemed so surprised and shocked; but I see that Chang seemed to have some of the same impressions. Anyways, I like listening to the interview and I think he has grown since writing that book.

Actually it is about being "clear" or clarifying what one sees in a chapter. A little history is good to remind us not to get lost on a word or a chapter or a single book. I know you don't like to look outside of the DDJ to understand these issues but others do. So you can call it 'serious' or an argument if you want. Just stay calm.

Well, one could use a more neutral word like "unoccupied" but let's remember that the picture is one of a "bellows"; so 'empty' is just it's momentary state. Legge says it like this which does tie back as the motion of the bellows instead of just its state: 'Tis emptied, yet it loses not its power; 'Tis moved again, and sends forth air the more.

That's basically what I am saying... the reason I don't like "take over the world" is because I see the phrase as "to unify" and that takes a lot more than just "take over" a piece of land from a few states... It's a long term exhortation. Why else the list? But this is going nowhere since my point is not coming across.