dawei

As was mentioned before, 'Xuan De' is used four times and three times it explains the previous sections and says "This is called Xuan De" (Ch. 10, 51, 65). I read somewhere that Yuan 原 (original/source) was used in replacement of Xuan when Xuan was a taboo character. I think this reveals much more about how to define Xuan. Not necessarily as deep or mysterious, but something more primal. I also like those translations which use the word "inner" as part of it to convey it is deep-seated (to the heart?). Or even Mystic Inner Power which ties it back to it's origin as well.

Excellent point on "daode". One finds it (DaoDe) in Zhuangzi, Huananzi, Wenzi, Confucius works, The Yellow Emperor Classic of Medicine, The Book of Change... but it is not used as "Daode" in the DDJ. The later historian Sima Qian said Laozi wrote a book on DaoDe and when he classified the various [schools of] thought, he called his "DaoDe". I think that probably the dominance of Confucian works drove it towards a moral meaning.

The poster was postulating whether seasonal awareness (as described in the YEIM) was a way to also see the relationship between Te and Shen. One dresses appropriate to the weather to guard against the weather; So I think the idea was whether one has a virtue appropriate to the season for the sake of Shen. It was nothing to do with an interpretation of the TTC. So I am not sure why your taking a shot at the poster? I guess another thread could discuss how outside texts (or whatever) helps in understanding the TTC (or Tao).

Thanks Stig, great info.

I know that is your interpretation (and traditional view). Mine is that there is not hastening but reaching the prime or peak, and then a reversal. That is why I said our ideas are opposite. Based on Chapter 30, the idea of hastening ceases to many any sense to me.

Since we're sharing china stories I went to a energy healer in the northeast and she had a very unique style I had never seen before but was a family lineage technique. She agree to "work on me" and release what she could. She worked on me for about 70 minutes and when done was sweating like crazy. She went to sit down immediately. She said the normal treatment is about 20-30 minutes and without much work on her part... It was not what she had experienced with eastern clients. (I was the first western client she had ever worked on). Yes, the 'internal climate' not what she was accustomed to all. Too much internal energy is not necessarily a good thing. I have read RV say in other threads about there are energy areas to "unblock". I think this is part of the internal climate that most are oblivious to... until an energy healer gets a hold of you

It it indicated from beginning to end; It opens with a newborn and transitions to enlightenment; Movement to stillness. There is only ONE option now; Return to source. You truly don't see it? The only logical next line is one which says, we are going home... Many translators write it along the line as Chan: After things reach their prime, things begin to grow old In that sense, I follow this basic idea. To grow old is to turn the corner on reaching prime (Chan); on the downhill of decay (Ni and Wu); towards exhaustion (English/Feng); diminish [the body] (me). It is all the same meaning. We don't see line 17 the same, so maybe you just don't follow my point. Here is a simple gloss: to tell / to say / to name / to call / to think / to be of the opinion / to assume / meaning / sense / These two are the same: I call this diminishing the body I mean this as diminishing the body They are very OPPOSITE !! To perish prematurely is NOT to perish in your time. You hold the former meaning and I hold the later meaning. The only same final result is death. But mine is natural from start to end. It is not so much "not in accordance with Dao" as much as it is the manifested dao'ing is not the eternal Dao; one perishes in it's own time. I don't find any logic to the idea the chapter opening with talking about a newborn and enlightenment to turning it all around in the end to suggest perishing prematurely. That makes no sense to me. Again, it may be something only I see in this chapter. I don't care if anyone agrees but maybe someone will actually see the potential for this idea.

Nice point. It depends on who is using the word... Lao Zi or Confucius... or Stig

There is an interesting observation I have made in my years traveling to china; that chinese men will walk around with their shirts pulled up to expose their stomach; and roll up their pant legs to expose their shin/calves. I have always taken this to mean they are naturally trying to regulate their body heat in the moment. They feel a need to cool off so just do it however they can. But I don't see them stand in front of fans to achieve this since it is not considered good for your body.

I think that the reason I used (and maybe Taomeow but I don't want to speak for others) used the word "in general" is because it's just that. One has to know themself and what they can tolerate or feel affected by. But to simply believe that the wind is nothing more than a regulation for body temperature is like believing that drinking alcohol is only going to affect the body with a hangover; no other effects on the body That being said, I am highly tolerant of not just wind but rain, chills, etc... I tend to attribute this to participating in many sports throughout my life regardless of the weather. For this reason, I actually like warmer weather than colder weather. Meaning, I don't sweat a lot. My body adjusts fast to even warm weather. On a recent business trip going through IAD, the A/C was off in half the airport. Everyone was fanning themselves and complaining. I truly thought it was quite comfortable. But, I don't know purposely expose myself to such conditions if I can avoid it since it can still affect my body without my knowing exactly how. But there are extreme cases of where it does not affect people because of their training to counter-act the conditions through Tibetan Tummo breathing. But I doubt if many of us are among that level. Hi RV: I would not let your mind setup an antagonist position to the wind; the wind is without purposeful harm; it comes to greet you from the divine level. I would put my mind on the whole universe of which the wind is but a part. But know your body's tolerance and act accordingly. Maybe you need to 'get warm' to prepare to face such conditions. Specific advice is hard without really see your bodily reaction but you know best.

General response based on this point. I think all three ending lines need to be reconsidered. I have not like the traditional way of handling them but have not resolved that until my recent closer look at the lines preceding it. Now I have come to a better understanding once those previous lines are all translated in the positive, for example: Susuki and Carus To know the harmonious is called the eternal. To know the eternal is called enlightenment. To increase life is called a blessing, and heart-directed vitality is called strength, ---- So, how to end the next three lines? 15.物壯則老。 Things Robust Then Old/Of long Standing/Outdated Eventually, all things develop Vigor and then will diminish [in return] 16.謂之不道， Meaning it not Dao Call this not [eternally in accordance with] Dao 17.不道早已。 Not Dao Long-Time [This is] not much longer with [abiding in the principles of] Dao The body can function for only so long, as all the ten thousand; it is unable to fully live according to the principles; its manifested Way is running it's path and goes forth and then returns. It is said to live, develop it's vigor and then return to its source. To live and die is natural. Some interesting pre-Han uses of "Bu Dao": 道昭而不道 – the dao manifested is not Dao (borrow a bit from Legge) 不道之道 – The way that is not to be trodden (yet again, borrow) 不道卑 – not inferior [to] dao (yet again; note similarity to the last line)

I would say the general principle you want to follow is to not have your practice environment be that much different right before and after your practice. Don't expose your body to a changing environment around practice time. And agree with ChiD if you use a fan, keep it very indirect to your body in light of the idea above. Wind is considered the #1 external pathogen affecting the body. (See Yellow Emperor's Classic of Medicine). So be careful even when not practicing.

I found internal support for my argument, in Chapter 30. Both this chapter 55 and Chapter 30 end with the same three lines. Prior to those three lines, both chapters have a parallel repetition of sayings. In Chapter 30, everyone translates these repetitions similarly; yet in Chapter 55 most translations change the last two in the repetition to be negative. So it is clear to me that the common way of handling those two lines is not consistent to Chapter 30. I am now satisfied with my thinking that the parallel lines leading up to the last three should be understood in the positive sense.

I don't like the use of "born" but I see that he is at least generally consistent in that usage throughout his translations. I also think he emphasizes "the" Dao quite often. So he probably gives more of a physical connotation to Dao than I would. Nonetheless, I like reading his translations.

I like what Ni writes: To hasten growth is to hasten decay

Yes, nicely put. The [energy field] Mingmen is the prenatal Yang aspect; The Dan Tian is the postnatal Yin aspect. It may be that the Dan Tian is so much talked about that the role of the Mingmen is lost.

Re: Line 15. I remember looking over this line and wondering about it. I will look more as I am traveling back from a trip. Hendricks makes the least sense, sounding like, when you grow old, your outside the following Dao. I tend to like English/Feng's base meaning.

I am not sure I agree. If Dao as the eternal is meant, that is an unchanging eternal [principle]. If dao as the [dao'ed] manifest is meant, then that is an ever-changing [physical world].

I would say at times Flowing Hands takes a Shengong perspective. These lines are not commonly found as a translation but as a deeper meaning even very few outside of Shengong/Neigong/Medical Qigong training would come up with it: Having experienced all things, he can obtain enlightenment. Through enlightenment, he can become Divine. What I disagree with is how most translators shift the meaning of the next lines when the structure is still parallel; I will show English/Feng as an example. 和之至也 - This is perfect harmony. 知和曰常 - Knowing harmony is constancy. 知常曰明 - Knowing constancy is enlightenment. 益生曰祥 - It is not wise to rush about. 心使氣曰強 - Controlling the breath causes strain. After the comment on harmony, there are four parallel lines which I would read all in the positive about harmony; most translators shift the last two lines to be negative when it's not there. These lines are stated in the positive sense, like the two preceding lines particularly if read in light of the entire passage meaning of Harmony, Vitality, Vigor. Heshang Gong uses a phrases of "Harmonious Breath". Looking at these next two lines more, note the word Qi below. 益生曰祥 Yi Sheng Yue Xiang Benefit Life Said Auspicious 心使氣曰強 Xin Shi Qi Yue Qiang Heart Enabled Qi Said Vigorous My Qigong master often says 'the heart qi is the most invigorating'. I see the same being said here in the last line. It completes the whole point being made. If I look for some very early commentators on these lines, I find a surprising positive translation. The modern translation movement wants these negative. Here are two early translations: Susuki and Carus To know the harmonious is called the eternal. To know the eternal is called enlightenment. To increase life is called a blessing, and heart-directed vitality is called strength, Addis & Lombardo Knowing harmony is called endurance. Knowing endurance is called illumination. Increasing life is called fortune. Mind controlling energy is called power. It is not until the next line that the contrast is made: but things vigorous are about to grow old...

The topic of Heng seems so important to me that I am amazed to rarely see it raised among discussions of Dao. It is about the fourth most frequent character in the old text, yet who talks about it? I am not surprised that you are the one to offer it up One reason it may be overlooked is that Heng (恆) exists in the DDJ oldest manuscripts but is replaced with Chang (常) due to the 'taboo rules' on characters which are the same as the ruler's name; even the first chapter reflects this change. Based on what word is used in a translation, the choice for Heng and Chang can result in opposite meanings! Heng can variously translate as: Constant, certain, fixed, common, enduring, waxing, spreading, based on context. As to the idea of stabilizing virtue in order to precede mystical power; I think that is a 'training' issue. It is a prescribed way for common folks to follow. Life has variation and some naturally don't follow prescribed rules.

I only was trying to see what was the "indestructible" connected to. So you want it to to connect to the "One Who", not to 'good foundation'. Yes, I know why you used WHO. But it is not required. One could say: "The well established will be indestructible" 'One who' is implied with "The". Ni uses "What is" to generalize the "One Who" idea: What is well planted cannot be pulled up. Chan is probably the most correct with his association of a person established in Dao: He who is well established (in Tao) cannot be pulled away.

But your sentence is saying the ONE WHO CAN ... is INDESTRUCTIBLE. So the way you translate, you are saying the body is indestructible. If you mean it is the foundation which is indestructible then it needs some change. Maybe like: One can establish a good foundation which will be indestructible.

I don't like 'sacred' because of the way the word tends to elevate whatever it is referring to. I probably have less a problem using the idea of sacred in regards to the Shamans than Wu Wei. I might just say it is as treating something as if returning to its source. In a way, that's what I think the Shaman was trying to do.

I don't follow. The line ends with "indestructible". I asked, "which is indesctructible"? Either it is the "One" or it is the "Foundation". I was not asking anything about establish. I was not quoting the line. I put quotes around the choices to show what I was asking. I asked MH and apparently MH understood what I asked. If you don't understand what I am asking, just ask for some clarification. Maybe it's an english convention of comparing with quotes which was not understood. I was not trying to quote the entire line again but which one was the "subject" of being indestructible. ---- I think I now see what your referring to, when I wrote: "one who can is indestructible" I was not quoting the original line. I was paraphrasing what I saw as the subject (one) to indestructible. If I had paraphrased the other possible subject, it would of read: "A good foundation is indescructible" I was NOT quoting the original line but reducing it to the subject.